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The Power of SPACE
The Power of SPACE is a reflection of the total human experience from the lens of creators, leaders, visionaries, and other extraordinary people.
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This episode offers some insight into awakening, conscious choices, and the power of prioritizing love. We start with David’s experience of overwhelming love at age 14. Then we explore some of David’s realizations as he entered adulthood and found true freedom on an epic road trip.
We also dive into David’s 5-stage process for living a soul centered life, which he’s modeled after work with his clients. David explains the importance of creating a vision, discovering your soul’s mission, developing unshakable focus, experiencing miraculous flow, and then ultimately prioritizing love.
I appreciate David for his heart and passion. He’s dedicated to a noble mission of helping others find true purpose, fulfillment and authenticity. It doesn’t get much better than that.
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"https://www.amazon.com/Art-Hearing-Heartbeats-Jan-Philipp-Sendker/dp/1590514637/" } } ["episode_insights"]=> bool(false) ["episode_quotes"]=> bool(false) ["episode_transcript"]=> string(50614) "[00:00:00] Ali: Welcome back, folks. Today, I have a new friend, a guest, Mr. David Peralta, who I met through another friend named Hector. And we had a recent conversation a couple weeks ago. It was what I would consider quick alignment, David. Just lots of smiles, empathy, knowledge transfer. And that's not always the case.
So I'm grateful to have had a nice fluid conversation and I'm excited for today to learn more about your story, learn more about the work you're doing in the world, which sounds fascinating. And with that said, who is David Peralta?
[00:00:40] David: Uh, I always struggle with questions like that and I'll tell you why. When someone asks me, "how are you doing?" I am instantly filled with like the fullness of like the whole picture and I know most people are expecting a very Standard answer or a very standard story, right?
But if you ask me who I am Right. That is the entire process that I have been through. That's my story. It has been the process of discovering who I am, not even who is David Peralta. That's my personality, right? That's who I am in this world, but who I really am, that's been the process that I've been on the last 20 plus years.
And that's the journey that I now share with other people to help them discover who they are. And so , if I could put it in a nutshell, I'm here to help awaken others.
I've been on a process of awakening to my soul and now my journey is to help awaken others to their soul. And then to embody that so that that soul, that spark of who we are, that creative energy, the essence of who we are expresses itself authentically through every single particle of our being. Through every single aspect of our life and allows us to live a life of purpose, of meaning, and the life that we're meant to live.
[00:02:04] Ali: Wow, not the answer we've heard traditionally.
Beautifully embraced. I love how you just dropped into that. You didn't hold back. I sense that when we connected is that you show up in a very authentic fashion, which is something that I have a lot of appreciation for. It's part of how I want to be in the world right now.
You mentioned all these things. We could end there. There you go, guys and gals. That's what you need to know. But let's start with a powerful word you used around awakening. I understand you felt a sense of awakening at an early age and I would like you to expand upon that.
[00:02:49] David: Yeah, sure. So, awakening is a process.
Awakening from what we think we are, who we think we are. Right. And so that process started for me when I was 14 years old. And I say it was a process because it didn't happen in an instant. For some people it does, but for me it was a very gradual process and it took quite a while.
It started when I was 14. I was a freshman in high school and I had a profound experience of divine love emanating from everything and everybody. That was my first taste that there was something beyond what I had experienced before. Because day before that happened, I was just a normal high school student, right? With all my normal high school insecurities and struggles and everything.
And then on that day when it happened, I was shown that what I had been experiencing was only the surface. And that underneath there was a profundity that I had never seen before. I had never known before. I had hoped existed, but I had never had a direct experience of. And so once I had that direct experience, it still wasn't like I suddenly had the answers.
I don't know, probably within a few days or a few weeks, I went right back to being a high school student. Like I went right back into the insecurities and I never forgot about that experience. I never forgot what it felt like to feel that connected to everything around me and to feel that love for and from everything around me.
And it definitely impacted me, but I wasn't conscious of it. Yeah, but it was always kind of there, like something else is there. And so when I continued basically doing what I thought I was supposed to be doing, checking all the boxes, getting good grades, going through high school, doing good on the SAT, getting into a good school, a good university.
By the time I was 20 years old, by the time I was a sophomore in university, I realized that following that script was not working for me. In other words, following the expectations that were being put on me by society, by my parents, by myself. Right. This was not leading to any sort of fulfillment whatsoever.
In fact, it was leading to the opposite. It was leading to depression. It was leading to heavy usage of marijuana to numb and basically to have some experience outside of my normal kind of struggling state. And so it was clear, like, this is not working. This is not what I want, but I don't know what it is that I want.
Like nobody around me is talking about this. Nobody around me is having any answers, in terms of how I'm supposed to be. And so my friends and I decided, all right, let's just get out of here. Let's just take a road trip. Cause we all felt there were three of us and we all felt like something's off and we don't know what to do. So let's just try something different.
So we took this road trip and had an amazing time, visited national parks all across the U S and he was really just beautiful. So we go from California to New York. And in New York, one of my friends flies back home to California. The other friend stays in New York because that's where he's from.
And it leaves me completely by myself in New York at 20 years old to make the drive all the way back West to California. And this was a terrifying prospect to me. I was still pretty insecure and I didn't know what to do. And that feeling of, I don't know what to do. Right?
This feeling lost, right, that this moment embodied. That was how I felt all the time, but I was always distracted by life. I was always distracted by, okay, well, I don't know what to do, but I'm being told that I need to do this assignment. So I'm going to do this assignment. I don't know what I really want to be doing, but I'm told that there's a party tonight. So let's go smoke a lot of weed. Right? Like.
There's always this feeling of lostness, and now I couldn't escape from it because I had to find my way, literally and figuratively. And so, as I'm gonna start this journey back west, I have this insight that, number one, I don't have to follow a schedule.
Like I'm not on anybody's timeline here. And so why don't I just take it step by step and not even plan anything out? And so I start to do that and I start to visit some friends. And anyways, long story short, I'm starting to drive West and I'm in the green mountains of Vermont.
And when I'm there, there's this moment where all of the expectations start to weigh on me. Where all of the feelings of I have to go back to school. I have to finish university. I have to get a job. I have to do all these things and I'm supposed to be happy, right? Like that's also the expectation that somehow doing these things is supposed to lead to happiness and then as I'm driving I suddenly realized that I don't have to do anything.
I've never had to do anything. That I have and always have been completely free to make any decision that I've ever wanted to. And I had been deciding this whole time, I had just been deciding unconsciously. I had been deciding without awareness, and without even the awareness of choice.
And once I realized that, It was like a weight lifted. All these expectations got removed and suddenly I felt free. I felt light. And that's when I started to feel for the first time an inner voice, an inner sense, an inner guidance, an intuition. And I realized that that was going to be my guiding light, that if I learned how to follow that quiet feeling that was inside of me, that was going to be my compass for life.
That was going to be what would take me from one step to the next and lead me from where I was to where I wanted to go. Even if I consciously didn't know where that was, that intuition already knew. And I just had to trust it. And so that was another major moment in this process of awakening.
And later on, I came to recognize like, Oh, that was my soul. Yeah. That was my soul talking to me. When I'm finally in this place where I'm quiet, where I finally remove the burdens, where I finally remove enough of the shadows. Because this is still beginning stages of this process of awakening.
But once I remove enough of these mental blocks that had been keeping me from hearing that voice, it was there. And so I started listening to it. And I started letting it guide me. And I started following what do I actually feel like I want to do, not what do I think I want to do, right? What do I feel inspired to do? And what was clear is I actually don't feel like going back to school at all.
At least not right now. Eventually I did go back and finish, but what was clear to me in that moment is I wasn't doing that because I wanted to do it. I wasn't doing that because I felt guided to do it. I was doing it because I was expected to do it and because I didn't know what else I could do.
And so I made a conscious decision. I'm going to commit to following this feeling as best as I can. Following this intuition. And so it led me to a Zen Buddhist monastery. And I ended up living there for about six months. And then eventually, it led me to India. And there I discovered a teacher named Sri Kaleshwar.
And this teacher finally was a person that I had not known that I was looking for because I was never interested in having a guru. I was never interested in having a master, but I was always interested in finding somebody who was connected to the source that I had felt when I was 14. Who was not separate from that source and it could help me learn how to connect directly to that source.
And that's what I found in Sri Kaleshwar. And that was the catalyst that finally helped my soul to awaken and start still beginning middle stages of this process of awakening. Right. But to start to let my soul come up. And start to take the dominant position in my life as opposed to kind of passive and covered and in the background.
[00:11:39] Ali: Man, wow, so much to explore there.
The first thing I have to ask, which is rooted in curiosity. And I'm also just going to project that anyone listening to that with awareness and presence has to also be curious.
Can you give more of a description of what happened at 14, whatever you're comfortable with. And the reason I'm asking beyond my own curiosity is that I feel like these signs are what people need. Because they come, at least in my experience, David, they've presented themselves. And in retrospect now, same where I'm a bit more aware, I didn't see them all the time, but sometimes I did.
And I was like, what is this right now? Now I'm almost looking for them. I'm like, Ooh, how can I create more presence awareness so that if they just flow through me instead of.
So I'm going back to the question. Can you give more context to what happened at 14 or is that a personal moment?
[00:12:45] David: Oh, no, I can definitely give more context.
So I was sitting in my history class and my history teacher was a former police officer. And he was sharing a story with us about a time that he got a call for a hit and run. And he was the first responder on the scene. And it was a five year old girl who had been hit and she was lying on the ground.
And so he went to her and he picked her up and he realized that she wasn't going to make it. So he stayed there with her as she died in his arms. And then he had to be the one who then went to that girl's mother and told her what had happened and that her daughter had died.
And I don't know why, and I don't know exactly what it was that happened, but for some reason that story tore open my heart in a way that it had never been. And Suddenly I was experiencing that story I was sitting there in my class and suddenly I am reliving that experience... out of my control. I'm not choosing to do this. I'm suddenly reliving that experience from every single perspective.
So I'm reliving that experience from the girl's perspective. I've just been hit and I'm dying. And then here comes this complete stranger, but who in that moment is there to comfort me in my last moments before I transition and that feeling of love and connection that I felt for him. And then suddenly the perspective switches.
And I'm now the police officer holding this little girl in her final moments. And as tragic as it is also feeling this connection and this gratitude that at least somebody, I can be there for her in her final moments. And then experiencing from the mother's perspective, the devastation and the grief and the sorrow of learning that I had just lost my daughter and I felt it all first person as if it was happening to me.
And it was so overwhelming that tears just started flowing. The bell rang just in time, I thought, and I get out of class and the tears are just pouring down my face because I've never felt anything like this before.
And it's break time and so I go out into the quad and my friends see me just sobbing and one friend asks me, "what's wrong?" And in that moment when he asks me, I feel so much love from him, right? Just a normal friend. I never felt this before, but this concern that he had in this moment, I could feel the profundity of the love from his heart and his care for me.
And again, it was just so overwhelming that I knew like, okay, I'm useless right now. Like I cannot go to my next class. I can't just stand here crying. So I better go to the nurse's office. And so I went to the nurse's office and she saw the state that I was in. She's like, just go lie down on that couch.
So I lied down on the couch, I curled up into a ball and then that's when it really started. And then that's when I started to see and experience suffering on a global scale that I had never experienced before. I started to be taken through different experiences throughout history of intense suffering and experiencing all of it, like as if it happened to me firsthand.
And so I experienced suddenly being in the Holocaust and being put into a gas chamber with dozens of other people and the horror and the fear of what was happening as you know, we were collectively being killed. And then again, the perspective switches and I'm on the other side of the chamber and now I'm experiencing it as a Nazi officer.
And in that moment, what I realized was that it was the Nazi who was suffering more. Because he was inflicting suffering. So not only is he inflicting the suffering on another, but he's suffering so much and his heart is so closed that he's not able to feel his own suffering. This is what allows him to do something like that because there's no openness to feeling.
And the pain of that was so overwhelming and it just kept jumping from perspective to perspective to perspective to perspective. And I just felt suffering over and over and over and over and over again and I could not stop crying until at some point it just stopped.
I felt this suffering on a global scale and then there was only peace. Then there was only silence. And then there was only love. A profound love that infused all of that, that blanketed and embraced all of that.
And then that's when I got up and that's when I came out and the world was brighter than I'd ever seen it before. Just emanating light. And another friend came up to me and I could barely even speak to her because I could not believe how much love was coming from inside of her and how much love was coming from inside of me.
And so that level of oneness, that love, that was the experience that I had when I was 14.
[00:18:01] Ali: Holy moly. Yeah, as I was here with you, which you're a great storyteller by the way, I was thinking words of openness, oneness, human connection. Empathy on a level that I don't think many of us can describe or experience.
So that is profound. Holy cow.
The other thing that I kind of want to reflect back to you, David, is that I couldn't help but think death and rebirth at the beginning of your story and how much this continues to present itself in my world. That life is constant change and a lot of things are just a model of death and rebirth. Sometimes short lifespans, sometimes long lifespans, and that is essentially the cycle.
You just gave a beautiful overview of emotions and the pain, the suffering, and then underneath there, there's always that love. Which part of me wants to, I want to like see a visual now of like David stepping out of the nurse's office, like glowing and your friend coming up. I mean, that just, it's just sounds majestic.
But... does that land with you? Cause I want to transition a little bit into something else you've shared, which soul centered work. Like inspiring people to wake up and operate from that true self, that inner core, that a lot of what you described. And so take this where you want, but where my curiosity was going was, Oh, there's all this death and rebirth.
And there's just awareness around it.
[00:19:50] David: Yes. That's right. Life and death, life and death, life and death, death and life. Yeah. This is a cycle of everything. It's a cycle of creation. Every single thing in creation arises, it exists for a period of time, and then it decays and goes back to its source.
Right. And then when it goes back to its source, something new can be created. And this happens on every single scale imaginable, right? It happens on a cosmic scale in terms of galaxies. And it happens on a micro scale, you know, in terms of our individual lives. And then even within our individual lives, everything is a cycle of creation, operation and destruction.
Actually, generation, operation and destruction. This is one of the things that when my teacher in India, Sri Kaleshwar, he said, God, that's what it is. It is this cycle of generating, operating, and then destroying. Constantly happening inside of the creation. And so everything is an aspect of that, right?
Like every part of our life is constantly being generated. We experience it for some time and then it goes back to where it came from.
And there's two ways that we can experience this. One is unconsciously. And when it's unconscious, then we're completely at the mercy of the waves of creation. So, in other words, if we are experiencing a season of hardship and then we suffer because of it, right? Or we lose somebody or we lose something or our business is failing, right?
Or things just aren't working out in our life the way we thought it would. Or whatever it is, or we've experienced some kind of heartbreak. These are all these aspects of creation. It's all just a cycling of creation. But because we're unconscious, then we are suffering because we are very much attached to what it is that we feel that we are losing, what it is that is changing.
Everything changes. Everything is in a constant state of change. And when we're in, excuse me, when we're in it attachment to our expectations or how something appears in the moment instead of to the essence of what it actually is, we are going to suffer. So that's the unconscious way of experiencing it.
And then there's the conscious way of experiencing it. And the conscious way of experiencing it is the soul is at the center. The soul is awakened, our consciousness is awakened, and so we are able to experience the fullness of this cycle. We are a part of this cycle and we are an active participant in this cycle.
And so we can surrender to this cycle. We can surrender to the changes that are happening in our life because we are aware that this is the process of life. Like, we don't normally cry when a tree crashes, decomposes , and then a new tree emerges. That's just part of life. We're not attached to that happening, right?
But if we lose our house, if we're going through a foreclosure, and we lose something very dear to us, oh man, that's going to create a lot of suffering. But if we can open to the experience from our soul. What happens then? Then we are engaging with life. The entirety of life, not just the part that engages through our mind, the entirety, the holistic picture.
The whole of the process, we become a part of that. And when we learn to surrender to that, we are able to step into an incredible power. Because now as an active participant in that, not only are we a participant in this cycle of life and death, we're a participant in the cycle of creation.
We've always been a participant in what is being created, but when it's unconscious, we're not aware of what it is that is being created with us, through us, through our unconscious thoughts, blocks, patterns, traumas, whatever it is. Once that stuff starts to get cleared up and cleared out, then we can start to take a more conscious role.
And what it is that we're creating and what is our purpose? What is it that we are here to do? How do we engage in that? And that's living a soul centered life.
[00:24:25] Ali: Wow. You're saying all my favorite words, David. I wrote them down and if they come up, you beautifully blend them where you introduce and then expand and then let them flow.
Creation, awareness, surrender, attachment. This has become common vocabulary for me. And what I love about your message right now is that it's so simple. I think it's easy to start talking about this or get into deeper literature around consciousness.
And I picked up books where I'm like, this is way too complicated. It's no judgment or criticism. The author just chose to create very complex words and mental models. Whereas what you just said in 10 minutes or less was like, beautiful, simple separation of unconscious choice versus conscious choice, and then the involvement in, in everything. The cycle, the constant change, which I love.
What I want to do now is I want to map that to what I interpreted and did some basic research from your website on your five stage process.
At a high level I saw it as vision, step one. Soul's mission, step two. Unshakable focus, step three. Miraculous flow, step four. And then prioritize love, step five.
You've already talked a little bit about most of these, if not all of them. And I feel like this is going to answer a bunch of questions I would have. And also give, give you some freedom to be like, great, you've now we have this foundational unconscious versus conscious operating system, awareness, way of being in the world.
So give us a sense of how you use these five steps with the people that you do work with in the world.
[00:26:28] David: Sure. So that five step framework, that was just, that's, that is a way to simplify, right? And put into action like as much as I've learned about this process of, I don't know what you'd want to call it, co-creation.
You know, I don't love the term manifestation, even though it's accurate because I feel like it's kind of been co opted and a little bit misunderstood, but it is accurate. And so essentially, for us to live consciously, we, we have to make conscious choices, right? And so the first thing that we need to do is we need to have a clear vision in our life. We need to have a clear aim.
And most people are so wrapped up in the problems that are surrounding them that the moment they plug one hole and solve one problem, another one has popped up. Right. And so they're basically just constantly, and I should say we, cause I'm a part of this also.
And I was definitely a part of this before where I'm just struggling with what's around me. And this still happens. This is the nature of illusion. This is the nature of living in the world. There's constantly going to be things trying to grab our attention and keep us from awakening to the reality of who we are.
That is part of what it means to be alive as a human being. So most people are stuck at that level, right? Problem with kids, problems with health, problem with finances, right? You know, whatever it is. It's usually health, wealth, and relationships. Those are like the three main problems that people have. And then there's just a cycling through these things. And so we just stay stuck there.
A few people are able to see a little bit further than that. You know, serial entrepreneurs, right? People who create really successful companies, they're able to have a vision that goes outside. It steps outside of that immediate range of problems.
And once they start to create that vision, then they're able to follow up on that vision and they're able to create something pretty amazing.
What I'm encouraging people to do and what I help guide people to do is to take that vision as far as possible and as encompassing as possible. So not just a vision for your business. Not just a vision for your relationship, but a vision for your entire life and a vision for what is the mountaintop that you want to reach in this lifetime.
And so the first thing that I do is something called a deathbed meditation, where I guide people to a very relaxed state and imagine themselves that they're in the moments before death, before they transition.
And to imagine that they have achieved everything that they're here to achieve. They've become the highest version of themselves possible in every single area of their life. And when people do that, that's when they start to have incredible experiences.
Things become very self evident. If there's no limitation and you're able to reach, right? You don't need to worry about how you're going to get there right now. You just need to crystallize and create that vision of what is it that you want to create? What is it that you want to reach? What is that aim?
Then again in all areas of your life. So what is the highest in your relationship with your spouse with your kids. The level of love and open heartedness that you want to feel. What are the qualities that you want to embody? In your relationships with them and with the entire world.
What do you want your relationship to spirituality to be? To God, the divine, whatever you call it, the universe, right? The sense of oneness with everything.
Connection to everything. The sense of fulfillment that comes with that satisfaction and happiness that comes from that. And then what is the impact that you've made in the world?
It's not about what exactly did you do, but it's about at what level did you help uplift others? What impact did you make in the world? And the most important thing is not imagining how it looks and what actually happened. It is the inner feeling. It is the inner state of all of these things that people get in touch with.
And that's the aim, that becomes the destination. So the moment they have that already just with that all kinds of things in their life start to fall into place.
So that vision becomes the very first step. That vision is the guiding light. And that vision, basically when we create, inner visions, this is like the blueprint that we are asking life to create.
Most of us don't take the time to do this. Most none of it.
[00:31:11] Ali: Yeah, this is not to interrupt you, but I just want to please, please do any point. I want to support you that I love that you start there. I do a similar exercise around having your best friend give your eulogy, but you write it. And the idea is the exact same.
It's that if you don't have a vision for what you want to create and help co create, then how could you possibly be conscious in your choices? Exactly. So please keep going, as this perhaps connects to the soul's mission, I think you were starting to talk about.
[00:31:44] David: Yeah, exactly. So purpose, soul's purpose, soul's mission, this is something that a lot of people get hung up on.
What is my purpose in life? What am I supposed to be doing? Right? In the Eastern traditions, in India, there's this concept of Dharma. The Dharma is what you're here to do. And so people often get caught up on the externality of it.
Like, what am I supposed to be doing? What am I supposed to be creating? What kind of business am I supposed to be having? How am I supposed to be helping people?
But that's the expression of Dharma. That's the expression of purpose. In my experience, in my understanding, purpose is the same for every single soul on earth, and it is to become a vehicle for love.
Creative love. My experience is that love is what creates everything. And because of that, that is the oneness. And so when we have an experience of oneness, we feel it as what we call love. Right? When we love somebody else, we are experiencing oneness with them. And so we feel all of the emotions that come along with love, all the rewards, all the feelings, all the good, bubbly, everything, all the uplifting.
Because that's how we feel when we're in a state of oneness. That's our natural state. And our purpose on earth is to become a vehicle. Our soul is naturally all the time emanating love. And love is emanating from every single soul. And so our job is to live from that state where we are all the time loving everything, everything, right?
Everything. A to Z. Going back to that cycle of life and death, our job is to love the entire cycle. Our job is to be open to the love and the creative energy that is inside every single part of that cycle, including the loss, including the suffering, including the struggle and not just being open to the positive things.
And then to love others in this way. That's our purpose. When we do that, that is going to express itself in very unique ways for every single one of us. The goal is not to initially discover what that unique way is. The goal is to start to live in that state and that unique way is going to become clear.
[00:33:53] Ali: Dude. I love that because you just gave a really nice, and I'll go back to simple answer around realizing purpose, which is a question that it's haunted me in the past. I've had a lot more peace with it, similar variation of what you're describing today. But I have buddies and friends and peers that like that question is just weighing on them.
And I love that if you embrace love from source from yourself, like that's about as good as life can get. Or that's about as, as alive, as awake as we can become without this burden, this weight of being like, what's my purpose?
What was I meant to do? Cause I think that's how a lot of people go after it. Like, well, I got to find it. I got to figure out all these things, you know.
[00:34:44] David: That's right. And what that also does is that it limits purpose. Because then we limit it to what we're supposed to be doing as opposed to who we're supposed to be being.
Actually, not even who we're supposed to be being, it's who we are. And that expresses itself in every single moment. And so, that will express itself through everything that you need to do.
So this also, what often happens is that people create this conflict between what I'm supposed to be doing, what I think I'm supposed to be doing.
And what's in front of me right now. Because what's in front of me right now is not what I think I'm supposed to be doing. So now there's this conflict, right? Like, I'm right now I need to change these diapers or I need to go shopping. But this seems to be getting in the way of what I'm supposed to be doing.
But no, no, no. No, this is equally the purpose. What needs to be done now, what is being asked of you now and to be done with your whole heart and presence. That's as much as you can. Surrender. Exactly. Surrender to your circumstances. Surrender to what life is presenting to you at the moment. The surrender is the key because the surrender is the way to discover what you thought you were supposed to be doing.
But at that point, it doesn't come as a thought. It doesn't come as what I think I'm supposed to be doing. It's not from the outside. It emerges from the inside. It emerges as clarity. It emerges as inspiration, and it emerges as just such a strong sense of This is what I want to do, and this is how I want to do it.
And that's the third step, the unshakable focus. Because now what starts to develop is clarity and a clear sense of what it is that we are supposed to be focusing on. And what I often see happening for people who aren't necessarily partaking in this process.
Most people, when I start to work with them, they are pulled in a million different directions. There's so many things that they could be doing. And so there's so many things that they are doing that their energy is just scattered. And for men, especially, I work primarily with entrepreneurs, that shows up as like I'm doing a million things for my business and none of them is particularly working. And so I'm struggling.
Again, it's not about what you're supposed to be doing. It's not even about what you're doing. It's about alignment is what you're doing aligned with who you are? Is it aligned with your soul?
And it comes from the inside out? So eventually we get to the point where this is just clear, it emerges from us. But on the way there the way that we can recognize it is if we do this visioning exercise, then we have a felt sense of what our vision feels like. We have a felt sense of what it feels like to be in this highest version of ourselves.
We already start to feel it. We already start to live it. We actually start to vibrate from that place. That felt sense becomes our guide because then we can start to look at all the million different things that I could be doing. Let me look at them one by one. Let me imagine myself doing them. And how do I feel?
Most of them are going to make us feel drained and kind of shitty. Don't do that. Right. But some of them are going to fill us with that same sense of inspiration, that same sense of aliveness. And fullness that we have in that vision and bingo. That's the alignment. That's what we're supposed to be doing.
And now the miraculous flow, the fourth step.
What we do does not matter to an extent. What matters is living in that alignment and then taking action from that alignment. The moment we take action from that alignment, we are pouring energy into the creation that is in alignment, both with who we are and what that vision is.
And so that creative energy goes into the creation. We are pouring creative energy into the creation through our action and through our effort. And that is what creates. That is what creates our vision. It is not what we are doing. The doing is the vehicle for the energy. And the more aligned our action is, the more energy is pouring through. And going back to our purpose, our purpose is to be of service.
That love, that expansion of love is through service to other human beings. So whatever we're doing in our life, whether we have a business or we're part of a company, or whatever our job is, our job is to show up and uplift other people through our love and through engaging with the love that is emerging from them.
So when our effort is in alignment with who we are, it's in alignment with the vision that we've created, and it's in alignment with uplifting other people and helping them rise up, and awaken in whatever way. Just basically pouring that energy. That energy is going into the creation and then life, God, the divine can take all of that and create whatever it is that we're asking for in ways that we cannot imagine.
[00:40:16] Ali: And that's the last step. That's what prioritizes love.
[00:40:21] David: So the key to all of this, right? What wraps everything together is the prioritization of love, not business. This is the one of the biggest traps that people fall into is the thinking that I have to prioritize my business. I have to prioritize my work.
I'm under all this pressure and stress to provide. And so I have to work. I don't have time. You know, some people do it consciously. They're workaholics. Some people do it unconsciously. They feel like they don't have a choice. I don't have time for my family. I have to provide.
At some point when I reach a certain level, then I will be able to be there for my family. But guess what? That moment doesn't really come because exactly, exactly. That moment doesn't come because there's always something new, right? We reach a new level in our job. We reach a new position. We reach a new level of income and bam, we're hit with a new illusion that just sucks the money right back out again. And we're just stuck in this cycle.
But when we prioritize love and especially in our closest relationships, our spouses, our children, our family, and then our friends, and then our co workers. When we prioritize love, when we prioritize relationships, and when we prioritize connection about everything else, all these things open the door to our soul and to other people's soul.
And so more energy is able to pour through into the creation. And when we take that aligned action, more is able to be created with less effort.
So if we close all those doors and we close our heart, there's not a lot of energy coming in. So we're going to be spinning, spinning, spinning, spinning, spinning, struggling, and suffering, and seeing very little results.
And when we start to act in this aligned way, and the doors to our soul are open to the doors and other souls, and we take that aligned action, so much energy pours through. And when we do work that then uplifts others, the uplifting of those souls is now allowing even more energy to pour through them back to us.
And that expresses itself in our life as prosperity, abundance, happiness, fulfillment, connection, all these things. And so we're just able to , step by step, go even higher and higher and be shown the way the entire time because we are in partnership with life now. We are not struggling against life. We are working with life, with the creative force of the universe to be.
[00:42:55] Ali: So whoever's listening, just go do that. Go, go do it david just shared and then well, that's sarcasm, but there's a lot of truth in there. There's truth in there for me, David. So thank you for sharing that. I sense your passion. I sense your energy.
If nothing else, just to come back to your message, the key I think is actually the last step. Yeah. At awareness. Not that the other steps aren't important because I know you have a methodical way and how you've designed this and I'm sure it is impactful for the humans that you work with.
But a huge message that I'm taking from this conversation, you know, that's overarching is prioritizing love. That's right. Stepping out and you're stepping in however you want to design your framework for it and embracing it.
I mean, it's part of your story, obviously. As you were sharing miraculous flow and prioritizing love, David, I caught myself in moments of my entrepreneurial journey where I'm like, I was so out of alignment and I was not prioritizing love.
I was, you know, embracing the shoulds and just operating under stress. And so I think that there's so much power in that if you just really take that to heart. And remember it on a daily basis. Like, am I prioritizing love? That's a question I'm going to ask myself after this conversation
[00:44:28] David: I'd love to give a concrete example of this, to show what it looks like in action. Because I'll tell you what prioritizing love puts you in. It puts your mind in uncertainty. It puts your mind in a state of near constant uncertainty because the mind doesn't know how things are going to work out.
And the mind desperately wants to know that mind desperately wants to be in control all the time. And if we give control to the mind, the mind is not supposed to be the driver. The mind is supposed to be the car. Yeah. Yeah. The soul is supposed to be the driver. Our consciousness, our conscious choices are supposed to be the driver.
And then the mind is the implementer, takes us from A to B to C all the way to Z, right? And so the mind is going to be in a constant state of uncertainty. When we do this enough though, we are in a constant state of faith. I don't know how, but I have so much faith that things are going to work out as long as I keep doing this.
So concrete example, years ago, before I transitioned to coaching, we were in a financial struggle. I was in a job that was clearly not earning enough to provide for all the needs that we had. And I was working full time at that time, my wife had just given birth to our second child. The burden was falling on her to take care of both of our kids cause I was working, right.
And so when it became clear that this job is not going to cut it, and one thing led to another and I, and I left this company, I knew that the next step, number one, we need more income. We need a higher source of income. But the intention that I set, the desire that I had in my heart, again, it's coming from the inside.
I don't know how it's going to happen, but it was, I want to be able to earn enough to provide for my family without having to put the burden on my wife. Isn't it possible for me to do this in a part time job and earn as much as I was earning before or more so that I can be there for my wife? So that I can be there and be present for my children and be active at the stage of their life where it's the most formative and I can have the most relationship with them.
That was the intent. It wasn't just a selfish desire. Like I want to make more money in less time so I can go to the Bahamas. I mean, nothing wrong with that. But it was really prioritizing the relationship, prioritizing the needs of those around me and the love that I have in those relationships.
So one of the first things that I do when I have this intention is I go and I talk to a mentor, a very close friend of mine. And he says to me, well, David, you know, you're asking with your current skillset to be making two to three times more money in less time. Is that realistic?
And when I thought about it, I realized, no, this is not realistic at all. Because at my current skill set, I don't know what else I can be doing. I can go to another company. Maybe I can get a slight raise, but I'm not yet ready to jump to the next level. So I don't know, I guess it's not realistic. I don't know what I'm going to do. I just let it go.
I just let this desire go, but I'd already put it out there. I'd already set this intention for my heart, already given it over to life, already given it over to the divine. So I'm just like, well, I'll do whatever it takes. I'll do whatever I need to do to provide for my family. And even if it means that I can't earn that much money, I'm going to do what I can. I'm going to open whatever doors that I can.
So I started applying for jobs all over the place, full time jobs. Knowing that none of these are going to be able to meet that request that I had, but I'm doing it heartfully. I've surrendered to the circumstances. And I'm doing whatever I need to to provide.
And I applied to job after job and nobody bites. Like I get a call back or two, nothing is happening. And I'm now getting to the deadline where it's like, we're now going into debt. We're living off of zero interest credit cards. And this is not what I was hoping for.
And then on New Year's Eve, I get a call. So I was working as a content marketer, with a specialty in search engine optimization. That's what I did back then.
I got a call from a marketing agency and they said, we found your resume on LinkedIn. We're looking for people with your kind of experience to hire out to our clients. And I said, okay, great. Yeah. I'm not doing anything right now, so I'll take it. So it turns out that now I'm doing the same thing that I was doing before, but now instead of being in house, I'm now a consultant.
And because I'm a consultant, I am now making almost three times as much as I was before. And so that means that I can cut my hours in half. And so everything that I asked for, because I prioritized love and didn't stop making an effort towards providing for my family, but with that heartfelt intention.
It came into my life. It was given to me in a way. I said, again, I poured my energy into the creation and creation was able to take that energy and provide me with what I had asked for. It wasn't about what I was doing. It wasn't even about, you know, moving towards that goal consciously.
I set that intention. I poured the energy in and then the divine is able to take that and create what I asked for because of that alignment that it had. And yeah, I was able to triple my wage and it was such a profound experience of this process. That this is what eventually led me to discover like, ah, okay, these are the steps that I can help other people through how to set that vision, right?
How to discover what we're here to do. Like all these things, it came through these personal experiences that I had. And so that's why it's, it's such a joy for me to help other people through that as well now.
[00:50:14] Ali: Dude, totally. I love that. I love that example because it's so realistic. That can land with anyone. And one of the nuggets in there is patience. Is that when you send these signals out to the universe, it's not always instant. I just published this micro blog post this morning about speed, urgency and survival. And there's a relationship here that even though we want to go fast, we want things to happen. Boom, boom, boom.
To your point, to your story, sometimes you gotta wait and you have to have faith. You have to surrender, you know, however you want to look at it. I can tie this back to nature as well because that's my message is that doesn't just speed up and create things, but love will take its course. Love is folded right into nature.
All the life and death, all the beautiful things we've discussed today, man. This was a gift. I'm going to pause because otherwise this will be a four hour episode firing questions and you'll just keep sharing all this beautiful wisdom. But what I would love to do is wrap on a few rapid fire questions.
[00:51:26] David: Sure.
[00:51:27] Ali: Okay. The first, what is your favorite book?
[00:51:32] David: Ah so, I will share a book that I recently read. And it's a novel called The Art of Hearing Heartbeats. Ooh. And it's a profoundly beautiful novel about love and the depth of true love. That is one of the most heart touching books that I have read in a really long time.
[00:51:54] Ali: Number two, David, what animal would you be if not human?
[00:51:59] David: Oh, what animal would I be if not human? I mean, I have to go with my answer when I was a kid. I just loved chimpanzees. I just loved how they played around trees.
I loved how happy they could be. You know Maybe I would say a bonobo now that I'm older because apparently chimps can be pretty aggressive. Not apparently. They can be very aggressive and bonobos are much more peaceful and a lot more mellow and laid back, but they still have that playfulness. And so yeah a bonobo.
[00:52:26] Ali: Ah, it's a great animal.
Last question, David. What's one of your favorite childhood memories? And it cannot be your awakening at 14 years old.
[00:52:34] David: My favorite childhood memories. Um, gotta give me a moment to think about that. One of my favorite childhood memories was...
[00:52:44] Ali: This is usually the hardest question. Yeah. Especially when people give it space.
[00:52:50] David: Yeah, exactly. That's what I'm going to do right now.
What comes to me right now is this memory of being embraced by my father and just feeling his love. I don't remember what we were doing, but there was a moment where I was so close to him, and we had such a deep embrace that I felt such a warmth, and I felt such a love.
And, I know now that that love was trans, actually it wasn't transformational. It was essential. Feeling that love at that age, and I didn't always feel it, right? But that gave me the felt experience, right? It provided my entire being with the knowledge that that love, that underlying love, that's always there no matter what. And even if I forgot that later on, there was always that full bodied knowing on some level, on some cellular level that that love was always there.
[00:53:55] Ali: I fully believe that is part of your message, your presence, why you're here. It's embodies the whole prioritization of love. I think there's a beautiful message in there as well for fathers, because that's something that I've felt both ways, Dad and with my son, my daughter. There's a connection if we're open to it, that's very real and it's not something you can really explain.
So I felt what you just said as one father and son to another, and I really appreciate that. I feel like that'll land with a lot of parents.
[00:54:34] David: Oh, great.
[00:54:35] Ali: David, this is a gift.
[00:54:37] David: For me as well.
[00:54:38] Ali: I think it will be one of many future conversations. I don't foresee not talking to you again. So thank you for being here.
Thank you for being so open with your message and bringing such a profound but simple message that I will be very excited to share with the world.
[00:54:58] David: Thank you so much for the opportunity, Ali. I've really appreciated it.
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She’s a woman of many talents with a deep range of fascinating life experiences. She’s also a lot of fun to talk to!
This episode offers some perspective and insight into the spiritual realm. We start by discussing what it means to be spiritual, not religious. Then we explore some of Heather’s experience with healing, teaching, witnessing others and being an advocate.
We also discuss the impact of generational trauma, which has become a powerful realization in my own life. Heather shares some notions and experiences from navigating different forms of generational trauma with her family and clients.
I appreciate Heather for her spark and service. She’s full of life, which is clear as soon as you meet her. She’s also served humanity in profound ways. I’m grateful to have shared some time with Heather.
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"https://www.amazon.com/Drama-Gifted-Child-Search-Revised/dp/0465016901/" } } ["episode_insights"]=> bool(false) ["episode_quotes"]=> bool(false) ["episode_transcript"]=> string(43387) "[00:00:00] Ali: Welcome back, folks. Today, I have a special guest, Mrs. Heather Hannam, who I met at Companion Camp about a month ago now, Heather? About that, MmHmm. So still pretty fresh, and it was a great experience. We could have a whole conversation about that, but today, we're interested in Heather. Particularly whatever, you feel like sharing, and on this show, you get the honor of introducing yourself. So how would you like to introduce yourself today, Heather?
[00:00:37] Heather: Well, first of all, I have been on the planet, I say heavenly years instead of 70. I just had my 70th birthday. So I'm now heavenly. As opposed to tricksty. I would say I'm a lifelong seeker. I have my fingers in lots of spiritual pies. Although I had one teacher say, Heather, it's all the same pie, which I really, really loved. I've studied with Dr Joe, I've done some Wim Hof, The Way of The Heart, Disciple of Jesus and Mary, so I'm modestly eclectic, even in my spirituality. I decided years ago I didn't want to be religious. I wanted to be spiritual because spirituality transcended all religions.
So even though I'm a practicing Catholic, I can tell you that I can go into any church, any synagogue, any mosque, any sweat lodge, any what's what's left temple and take what helps me to be a better woman of God and leave behind what doesn't.
I am by trade a holistic manual physical therapist. I'm still practicing. I retired from clinic work two years ago and reinspired into a home practice. So I've been a therapist forty-five and a half years now. My specialty is the jaw and the pelvic floor for women and men, which is incredible. My tagline is, "I work the orifices above the neck and below the waist that either starts conversation or ends it," but it rarely, it rarely ends it. And I do distance healing and then I also write poetry, spiritual poetry usually. So those are a few of the things. You know, I'm a mom of five and a grand of seven and a great grand of one. I stay plenty busy.
[00:02:25] Ali: Well first, that's exactly why I let you introduce yourself. I could have never recited all that. I feel like that's just a chunk of your life, a chunk of your experience. It's amazing. Precisely why I just wanted to have fun, exploratory convo with you. And a lot of stuff is in there.
Where I think I'd like to start, even though I have a feeling we're going to just bounce around in a graceful way, is a little bit about how you sort of said, and at least in my brain, I felt emphasis that you decided to become spiritual, not religious.
That's cool, that's powerful, that's flexible, it's malleable, and I say that with my own filter in that I grew up in a Christian church, and now I would also consider myself spiritual, not religious. So what does that mean? What would you want people to know about that?
[00:03:23] Heather: Yes. I feel that we're all called to be saints and I teasingly say I'm not an uppercase, a capital S saint, but we are called to be saints. And so that colors my thought process on that. And I had a teacher, a spiritual teacher tell me that the word religion is re-legion. And so a legion is a lot of people, right?
And so if you consider a legion like a big ocean going cruise line, at some point you're going to go up the tributaries. And have to get off that boat and climb into your own little boat and go up the small tributary to the source. And that was spirituality. That was not religion. That was what transcends what you've been taught.
[00:04:22] Ali: That is fascinating. It's also like a really nice metaphor for just exactly what you described, kind of having the source and then being guided and needing to find your own path. You know what this also kind of segues into, which I'm very curious about, and you shared a little bit with me at Companion Camp, is your trip to Ireland, your recent trip to Ireland, right?
[00:04:45] Heather: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
[00:04:48] Ali: Let's start with why you went there because that's fun.
[00:04:51] Heather: Well, it was as simple as our local priest was leading a pilgrimage to Ireland. And up until now, I've worked and hadn't been able to go. So, you know, I called out to Gary, "Gary, you want to go on pilgrimage"? And he says, sure. So we signed up.
And as people would ask me, why did I want to go? I realized I wanted to get holier and I'm not sure where that came from, other than maybe a download. But being on pilgrimage, which I have done other pilgrimages was about exploring who I am in the, in the great creative force of the world. What are my gifts? What is my life mission? And how am I to use that in the world?
And so the idea of pilgrimage and to be on different holy sites was fascinating to me. I've been in Mexico in 2011 and I met Mother Mary in a way at Guadalupe that I could never have expected. And I, I didn't know what kind of experience I would have in Ireland, but I just put out the intention to get holier and see what that would be. So that was my intention in going, to get holier.
[00:06:04] Ali: And I remember you telling me that when you got, this is the fun part for me, when you got to the Dublin airport and they asked why you were there. The customs, right? He said...
[00:06:16] Heather: Yes, that was fun. Yeah. The customs agent said, so how long will you be here? And I said about 11 days. And what will you be doing? And I said, I've come to get holier. And he stepped back and he said, "I've never had anybody tell me that before." Stamped my ticket and off I went.
[00:06:35] Ali: Oh, I love it. That is so cool. So what would be just a few highlights of that experience if you feel like sharing.
[00:06:42] Heather: Sure. Um, our 1st holy site was Knock our Lady, uh, brought Joseph and Saint John and Christ in the form of a lamb to a visitation there at Knock, in the early 19's. I'm not going to tell you the dates, and, uh, stayed there without saying anything, which is not common with usually those kind of visions are a message is brought.
There was no overt message, but she stayed there long enough with all with Joseph and John and and the lamb that I think 17 different people came and saw them from young children all the way up into their 70s and they all told the same story, which gives it tremendous credibility.
Anyway, so when I was there and I put my hand on the wall of the church, I just get a wash in energy. What it feels like to me is that my body has become an atom and I might be the, the nucleus, but the electrons are just spinning around me. Excuse the pun, a very electrifying experience and it's one of the ways I know I'm in a deep spiritual place is because I feel that level of energy. So that was one.
And then, you know, we went to lots of castles and I was most intrigued by the cemeteries, quite frankly. The graveyards outside and reading, uh, headstones. And trying to see which, what was the oldest headstone I could find that I could still read it and it would make sense to me. And there was this beautiful one from like 1789 and they spoke of this man, the bereft wife, was missing her husband, who was like a friend to the orphan, a helper of the widowed. I mean, they just listed the beautiful things that I think were called to do to give into the world. That was a really, really sweet time.
And then, when I put my hand on several of the, the Celtic crosses and some of them are like 12, I think the, the largest, maybe 14 feet high, and I would put my hand on them and the vibration was compelling and visceral. There was times I had to look up because it felt like my hand was rocking like three to four inches side to side.
But when I opened my eyes, it was just my hand was just solid against this Celtic cross and my whole body resonated with the resonance and the energy beneath that. So those were probably highlights. And then I come to find out the Taggart, which is my surname, my grandmother's surname means son of the priest. Mm hmm. There's got to be a story there. And it wasn't it wasn't until the last day that I even saw a establishment that had the word Taggart on it, you know, I certainly took a picture of that.
[00:09:55] Ali: Totally. Oh, my goodness. Wow. That's a lot. Those are three extraordinary experiences. And one of the things we talked about when you first shared this with me, Heather, is the energetic power of Ireland.
And this might not be true for everyone, but like you, I've had a few experiences there, not quite the same, but where my body, mind, my heart and my soul were very at peace and it's hard to describe. But it's a place that really cultivates energy out of me that I don't feel in other parts of the world, and I've traveled quite a bit, so I can say that with some degree of certainty.
What's also interesting about Ireland is, I shared with you, after the second trip there, I did a DNA test and realized that I was over half Irish British, which shocked me. I would have thought it was a lot more European mix and then my Iranian heritage, but it was the majority. And so that kind of gave me some assurance. And I feel like you too have quite a bit of Irish lineage, correct?
[00:11:10] Heather: I do. My Grandmother and grandfather were full Irish. I have English as well. And as I shared with you, it had always been a more of a joke than a, um, a coming home to that had my sister, my older sister and younger sister and had any of us been a boy, our names would have been Taggart Patrick.
And I could never understand that because we named our dogs Tag and Tag was a dog's name. And that's what I, you know, when I thought of Taggart, I said, gosh, you're going to call me a dog's name. So it always became a joke. Ah, you know, every March 17th that I've been a boy, my name would have been Taggart Patrick.
But being on that soil, I came home in a way I could not have told you. I ended up grieving. I spent a day just in tears and sobbing at what was done to the Irish people, what they lived through in the famines. And I read Trinity and a few other books, to have some background as well.
But there was, there was just a homecoming. I have British as well. And I felt badly being British, being a descendant of people that wreaked havoc on my other people and then to settle in so well and feel that vibration. And old rocks that just, it just spoke to me in a way.
I just came home in a way that I could never have expected, which is, I think the paradox of, of even going on some of these trips. I expected something to happen. I just didn't know what it was. And so the beauty of that was I came home in a way I could never have guessed.
The country just spoke to me, the colors, the heather, the amount of heather on the hills. You know, I always thought of heather as scotch, but oh my gosh, the hills and hills of that beautiful red heather. So I have lots of pictures of me standing in front of that.
[00:13:08] Ali: Yeah, it's a beautiful place. That's another thing is that it's a beautiful place. It's alive. It's, it's surrounded by the ocean, which makes it interesting. Just the volatility of the weather. So, yes, I feel you. I feel that there is a part of me when I go there, it feels like being home. That's a great way to describe it.
Is that enough pilgrimage for now? Or is there another pilgrimage in the future?
[00:13:37] Heather: Well, we're thinking of going to the Holy Land next year, but I'm not sure that's going to happen. Okay, right, not right now. But absolutely, absolutely, I want to do more pilgrimage.
[00:13:47] Ali: Very cool. Yeah, a buddy of mine is walking the, the...
[00:13:52] Heather: El Camino Trail.
[00:13:53] Ali: El Camino. Yeah, uh huh. He's walking that and it looks like such an epic experience. So I love tying this back. I love the curiosity to go somewhere to get holier. To go on a pilgrimage for whatever spiritual desires fulfill you. Like we talked about earlier, it doesn't necessarily have to be mapped to a specific faith, but rather to just invest in your spirituality. I think that's beautiful.
It lends into something else you shared with me that I'm curious about. So when we had a nice chat previously, you shared that your life mission is to be a healer, teacher, advocate, and witness. Those are four powerful words. What do you want to start with?
[00:14:36] Heather: Well, healer certainly comes first as a physical therapist. I knew age 8, 9, 10 that I wanted medicine. My dad would bring home time magazine and I would always go to medicine and science. So I have that appreciation that I was to do something in that and my grandmother probably fed into that. I didn't like it at the time because while all my other cousins were out playing, grandma would ask me to rub her legs because I had the nicest hands. I had the best hands.
So I missed cousin time. And, you know, I've decided based on Dr Kelly's, I've given up regret, but it still saddens me that I. Yeah. Well, I was young and ignorant. I didn't know, but I was resentful at times. And yet I was obedient and I always did the best I could on her legs.
So I have those two strong advocacies that got me into healer and as a physical therapist. What I now know is it's holistic. I see body, mind, spirit. I can't separate them. I've heard too many stories in dark rooms where people are somaticizing their grief. Their woundedness. And I get to be the first one to witness to them.
And that's part of that witness piece. Not only learning to witness to my own woundedness, but to sit in presence and be a witness to someone else. Whether it be joy filled or grief work or anger or anything else. And I think it's best done by people who have done a lot of their own personal work, which I have.
So it's easier to do, and just hold space for space. Have a container big enough. There was a, I don't know, 17th century monk who said something about turning the river of compassion inward. So I often tell my clients, get a big bowl of compassion and make sure you're sitting in the middle of it. And sometimes I'll say, I'll sit there with you because I have the same woundedness. So, that's a piece of the witness.
Teacher as a physical therapist. I teach people how to take good care of themselves. I teach them how to stay away from the behaviors, the body mechanics that produced the pain that brought them to me. I love teaching how to do physiologic quieting. How do you get quiet within yourself? I think there's a ton of stress out there. I would say so many people are on fight or flight. They're not even aware of it. You know, I had a East Indian pediatrician as a client. And one of the things that was sweet is he would come in and sit in my, you know, you know, the little round stools that physicians and therapists sit in.
I would come into the room and he'd be sitting on my stool. I'd have to go sit in the chair. It's kind of sweet. But we were doing physiologic quieting breath work and watching it on screen, biofeedback. And he was breathing 28 times a minute. That is incredibly fast. That's the fastest that I've had many people in their 20s, high 20s, 28 breaths per minute.
And yet outwardly, very calm, very, very calm. And he came back the next week, he says, Heather, you are right. I'm breathing 28 times a minute. So teaching people how to come home to themselves, how to drop in, get out of their head and drop into their bodies so they can access their wisdom, their ability to take good care of themselves.
I call it hauling people off the edge because things they've done in their past that helped them get through hard times are no longer serving them. And so teaching the esoterics there, and I loved teaching physiologic quieting to sophomores. I did that for about 15 years while my kids were in school. And kids are hungry. They are hungry to know about themselves, to recognize stress in themselves and others and have tools with which to deal with that. And so that was incredibly rewarding.
One day every semester I'd teach like four sophomore health classes. And I would teach them not only about stress. How do you recognize stress in yourself? How do you recognize stress in your parents and your siblings and your friends? How do you know when Ms. Kentz comes in and it's not a good day for her, you know? And then what can you do? And it was incredibly gratifying because people would stop me in the hallway and tell me, Mrs. Hannam, Mrs. Hannam, I'm doing that thing. I recognize this. They're hungry.
And I was 34 ready to walk away from a marriage and four children before I really had to take care and realize how I'd been living my life and how things that had helped me survive my childhood were, were drowning me. And so to be able to give that back to younger people.
And I told that story because that was my truth. So that I said, you don't have to wait till you're 34 with four children underneath your belt to look around and go, life is not working for me.
So the teaching and then advocate. I'm a one on the Enneagram. You're probably familiar with the Enneagram. And I'm a one and I have a really strong justice wing. Every day I say generosity, kindness, faith, hope, strength, truth, justice, love. So I want to stand up for those people who don't have a voice, who are being taken advantage of in the moment, to teach them how to self advocate. So, there.
[00:20:29] Ali: That is awesome. Wow. I think I'm just going to keep saying, wow, as I listen, because those four simple, but powerful words have this beautiful blend and integration of the work you've done in the world, the life you've lived. I imagine we could have a whole conversation about each of those, but some of the things that popped up for me just to start with, like the healer.
And how you actually brought some of the teaching into this is that. It seems to me, Heather, that we're in an era of people waking up to a different type of healing. And let's just say for common language and to use some of your words, like getting back into their body. Learning to feel their feelings, learning to navigate previous trauma, and then to the, what you shared is proactively looking for ways to reduce stress.
Because if nothing else, I feel like part of our need to heal as humans is a response to the massive amounts of stress that is created in our world that we absorb. And one of the things that I see in my home that I want to share with you and then see if it spark something for you is that I've been educated on generational trauma, which I think is real.
And for people who don't have an understanding of that, it's just a concept that if your parent had trauma, then that could be passed on to you via the cellular level or, the body, however, you believe science and and source and some of these things can coexist.
But where it gets interesting, Heather, is that, back to the stress, like I see some things in my children's, particularly my son, my beautiful son, Everest, where he's just, he's go, go, go, just do what's next. What's next? And even to present peace and calmness with him is, is a battle. It's not in a way where he's defiant, but he just isn't interested in that. He wants to go.
And instead of scratching my head and being like, well, where did this come from? It's pretty clear to me that it's the same concept of generational trauma. Because when he was conceived, that's how I was. Go, go, go, go. I couldn't sit still and I was so stressed. I couldn't even see it.
So years later, I've done some healing. I've done a lot of inner work. Started to wake up to these things, but it's interesting because as I look around and go back to the healing, it doesn't seem like it's getting any better. In fact, our youth is susceptible to have even more of this. Because so many adults, so many humans right now are just inundated by stress. Does that land with you, just from the work you've done, the people you've held space for? Or what do you think about that?
[00:23:39] Heather: Oh, yeah. You know, scripturally, they talk about the sins of the parents being visited on the next three generations.
[00:23:45] Ali: Okay. Right. Right.
[00:23:47] Heather: There's that and the Native Americans will tell you it's like 5 to 12 things that are happening here are going to go down the line 5 to 12 or sorry, 7 to 12 generations. Epigenetically, we know that genes can turn on and off. Here's an interesting concept. Your grandmother, when she was pregnant with your mother, in which whose ovary you were an egg, there's three generations in the same field.
Hmm. Right there. Right. So what happened to grandmother and the energy that she's bathing her baby and future grandson in all in the same place. And, you know, we're just a few generations off of the farm, you know, where it was survival. You had as many kids as you could, because you needed them all to survive. Right.
Totally. And we now know that genes can be turned on and off. We know that, people will, I got a lot of this from the German new medicine that I studied as well, it's like, why is this kid afraid of drowning? We don't understand it. Maybe a young adult. And then we come to find out that two generations ago, somebody drowned, you know. How does that get passed on? Epigenetics I think is a good way to explain that.
I had a spiritual teacher who had had lymphoma. She was up on a roof with another of the spiritual teachers that I was with. It was early in her spiritual teaching career and she got hit by lightning. Now, the interesting thing on the other side, lymphoma gone. She was seeking, she was seeking help at the time. Lymphoma gone, her straight hair - curly, brown eyes - blue.
[00:25:36] Ali: All after the lightning, huh?
[00:25:38] Heather: After the lightning. Now we don't all have to get hit by lightning to have those moments where something different is happening. And I think about, when I was working with this counselor, Lorenzo, I realized I needed to ask God what God wanted for me.
And the scary thing about asking God, what God wants from you is that you may get an answer. You will get an answer. So I'm in the arms of my sister not far from my childhood home, sobbing, asking God what you want from me. And what God told me was, I want you to stop perpetuating the evil at 18681 South Redland Road.
Now that meant the shame that had been passed on from generation to generation. I grew up in a home that had all the abuses. We had sexual abuse. We had emotional abuse. We had physical abuse. We had alcoholism. We had it all. Um, and that I was to stop perpetuating the shame that it was the base of that.
Now, at that time, I held Mother Teresa and Billy Graham in high esteem. I thought they were walking their talk. They were doing their work on earth. And what God told me was that their life mission is worldwide and God would give them every grace and blessing they would need in order to do that.
And that even though mine was local, more local, I would be given every grace and blessing I needed to do it. That was very comforting. Here's the kicker though. God said, takes the same amount of courage to say yes, and that I never needed to put anybody else on a pedestal. If someone else is doing their life mission, that's the most important thing.
So I quit putting people like you're better than I am, you know more than I, I mean, there's a lot of people who know more than I am. I don't hold them better. You know, I think we're all called to do our life mission. One of my other spiritual teachers said, if we do not do our life mission, 10, 000 other people can't do theirs because we haven't done ours. We are so intertwined.
And I think there are a lot of people who in the stress of survival, don't have either the wherewithal, the support. I don't know if it's additional gumption. You know, sometimes I look around, go, why me? Except I have three sisters who have all done their work.
That's really uncommon in a family. Usually one person will say all these happened and they get blackball. They get black sheep. They move away. You know, I had sisters that were nodding their head. So that's incredible. But, you know, why is that? I don't know. A lot of times it's the first person who says what happened to my family was not okay. And they're the only one who's saying it and nobody's going to shut him up.
So, when it comes to kids and the amount of stress they're under, I think of all the ADD um, and ADHD I think about pregnant women who are under stress and are bathing those babies from day one in high adrenaline, right? Is that part of that?
And then we just have the stress of the world. How do we live in the moment? I did a lot of personal work. I think you have to do that. We have to grieve what we needed, what we didn't get. And then learn to give it to ourselves. And a lot of people have it in their head. They know they should forgive. They know they should live in peace. They know that they should be kind, but they don't know how to manifest. They can't get it from their head to their heart. So it's not in their day to day walk.
And then parents pass it on to their kids. You know, I passed a crapload on to my kids, that I needed to make amends for and to share with them why they saw me the way they did with their dad. What was that dynamic about? And I was grateful that all my kids were open to hearing that. And I said, you know, daddy's got his own story. This is my story. And then out of that, ask forgiveness on a regular basis. Are there things I say or do that are still hurtful to you and make amends for that and to stop trying to do that?
No, because we're all works in progress, right? Or process. So, that's the witness when I go to schools and I see kids stressed, I make sure I get eyeball to eyeball with them. I make sure I know their names. Even adults classes, I TA, healing the pelvic floor at Esalen every year with Suzanne Skurlock, and I want to know their names by the end of the night.
I want them to know that they've been seen, heard, respected, and supported. Those are the narcissistic needs of children. Alice Miller's work, phenomenal work. If you've. Yeah, Drama of the Gifted Child. If I could have everybody read one book, that would be the book I would have people read. But to be seen, heard, respected and supported. And that comes with the witness and advocate.
[00:30:47] Ali: Wow. So yeah, I was actually going to talk a little bit to the witness piece because one of the things I've noticed is, I think we've known for a while that witnessing in a one in one environment can be powerful, can be healing.
And that's where traditional methods of therapy come from. And not to just to make that simple, not to say that there's anything wrong. I think that one on one therapy is still great. It's a powerful tool, but being witnessed in a group is a whole different dynamic.
And whether you're at a retreat, or whether you're at Companion Camp, or even if you're at a larger environment. Even most people go to church, I think, because they want to be witnessed. And for a variety of other reasons. I'm not saying that's the only reason. Church is a place to be witnessed amongst people with, with high energy and intentions to give, to heal, to feel.
And so this is something again that I think is becoming more prevalent is that yes, there's always space for the one on one witnessing. And I love what you said, looking people in the eyes, cause it's so easy in our distracted world to just like, not actually make eye contact. I always ask my children, we're talking about something of depth, like, hey, let's please look at each other. It's a basic form of body language.
But back to the witnessing, I've experienced some pretty profound things in group environments. And back to something you said, it usually just takes courage. So when you say, why me? I think it's because you're courageous. I think most people are like, no, thanks, nope, I'm not going to go first. But if a Heather goes first, if Ali goes first, then other people are like, oh, cool. I can do that too. Right.
[00:32:38] Heather: I hear you. I decided years ago, if the opportunity to share was there, I would always take it. If I could offer something from my own experience that might be helpful. That I would absolutely take it in groups, powerful groups. I've been in groups of 800 and Dr. Joe Dispenza's, you know, meditation workshops. That was the largest I was ever in, but now he's doing, you know, 18 and 2500 people because the group energy is so powerful, is so powerful.
[00:33:14] Ali: That is cool. Yeah. That piqued my interest too. So it sounds like you participated in a large group meditation. That is awesome.
Back to these words because you've sparked something. You said children want to be seen, heard, respected, and supported. Just the other day, I was toying with something I had been sitting with and writing and sharing with friends where I posted something along the lines of all children or most children want to be seen, heard, and loved.
So very close to what you just described and in some ways I remember when I was like really musing. I like to muse. When I was really musing with this, I was thinking like, loved, connected, but respected and supported are right in that same vicinity of words, of meaning. And so, I am already pretty familiar with why I think children want this. I also think adults want these same four words.
[00:34:19] Heather: Absolutely. We're just grown up little kids.
[00:34:21] Ali: Right. And so an interesting topic is we have this perspective that children want and need these things. And then logically we know that we do too, but then what happens?
How do we lose that? Because most adults hide. I'm going to do the inverse. Instead of being seen, they hide. Instead of being heard, they don't speak their truth. Instead of owning respect, they just kind of dance around and fight and create conflict and all the emotional drama that we create as humans and support it is another one.
It's easy to not step in, to not ask or receive. I have so many friends and even including myself, that have trouble asking for help. So the question becomes, why do adults lose all this?
[00:35:10] Heather: You know, we come into this world, sweet and innocent. And by the time we're like four to six, it gets beat out of us. When I was doing biofeedback with clients, you know, babies come into this world, big, soft belly breathers. Unless they're ill, but generally speaking. But by the time they're 4 to 6, they are upper chest breathers. They are under the stress of the environment. The majority, not all as you know, and so I think parents can only give what they can give.
A powerful piece in recovery is being able to look back and say, I needed this, didn't get it. Learning how to give it to yourself. And then being able to pass it on. My kids were young when I really started. I just had my fourth child and I was a controller by nature.
That was my drug of choice. All my siblings did some alcohol and/or drugs. I did control. I was a collegiate volleyball official, high level. You know, I had my control places and I realized that was five new relationships I had to control and I couldn't do it and that's what put me over an edge.
So that's how I met my edge. I was no longer happy at work. Work was not fulfilling to me. Life was not good. The things that I could, like I mentioned before, wasn't satisfying. So learning to give that to myself and then reflecting it back and having children, a nine year old and a baby. And quite frankly, I think you'll probably be amused at this.
I remember I was two years into group counseling and I'm on Lorenzo's couch going I don't know anything. Oh, my God. I don't know anything here.
We can do some work because we had to dismantle all the limiting belief systems that I had that said when and where I was worthy when I could judge other people to be worthy or not. And it's a process. I don't know that there's a single moment. We just keep having to say yes every day. We've all had that.
I just remember my little 18 month old sitting on the floor and me just being present for him. I'd never done that with my other three children. He called something out in me. He's an old soul. He called something out in me and was my teacher. I think once we understand it, we can see it more easily in ourselves and others.
And once we do that, it's hard to unsee. I think there are people who will work so long and then go back to sleep because it gets too painful. But if you're willing to keep going, I mean, the rewards are incredible. I don't longer fear the future. I know I have every gift and blessing I ever need to handle anything. And we've had ugly stuff in my family. People said, how'd you do it? I said, you know, God said everything would be okay. I don't fear. I know I've got what it takes to do it.
And part of that in my life mission is to share that. In my treatment rooms and with my family. I'm the first one that said what happened in my generation was wrong. I'm the first one who then went to my children and said, what I taught you was wrong. They still have to do their own work because otherwise they'll pass it on. And there's nothing that says they'll pick up the baton and run with it. Gratefully they have, but, you know, it was at different stages. So, I don't know where that fits in, but...
[00:38:47] Ali: It all fits in. It all, it all flows. I feel like there's so much depth, that your stories could just run in a beautiful way. And one of the things you said that really stuck out to me. There is a message I've received and want to continue passing on to other parents in particular is when you describe seeing you're 18 month old and really being with them in a way where they were teaching you.
I think more often than not in this season of life where my children are still pretty young, seven and five at the moment, they truly are teaching me way more than I'm teaching them. And we're practicing life together and failing and I'm owning it more and being like, ah. And I'm telling them, and this is just part of me being more expressive, telling them how I feel and going back on specific things like, you know what daddy apologizes for that because he was really, really sad and didn't even realize it. And so in so many ways, Heather, I balance or dance with this whole (I laugh) because I, I balance and dance with this notion of being like, I need to be more like them.
I need to move through the world, even more curious, even more adventurous with just the ability to just show up and express myself and feel everything. The entirety. I tell people a lot, like if you see a child throwing a tantrum, pay attention. Instead of closing off and getting all scared and projecting about if you were the parent and all the fear and the closeness that comes with like just watch what's happening. It's just this expression, this volcanic eruption of emotion and it's gone.
Whereas we do the opposite. We get extremely scared or angry and just suppress, suppress, suppress. And it stays in us. And then back to what we were talking about, we pass that shit on. We give that to somebody else. And then the cycle continues. So I think it's such a gift if you can truly commit to learning from your children.
[00:40:58] Heather: Oh, absolutely. You know, I was fortunate enough to have grandchildren that I could babysit and get to know. And one of the things I did that I didn't know to do with my own children is to give them an emotional language because they are just one big ball of emotion.
Right? You know, so we did the big four - mad, sad, glad, and afraid. Um, what number is it? Zero to ten. And sometimes we do fingers. How many fingers is it? You know, where is it in your body? Where do you feel it in your body? What color is it? And then I would model that to them as well. And when my grandson said, it's in my heel, I accepted that it was in his heel when they said it was all colors. I accepted that it was all colors. Yeah.
And I think that was helpful. Really, really helpful. In talking with them and, you know, I'd bring up scenarios and say, how you feeling about this? What's this about? And I would, you know, share, as you said, my own in ways that they could hear and hopefully model as they got older.
[00:42:03] Ali: I love that. I'm going to use the colors because we do the same thing. You said mad, sad, glad and afraid. Okay, cool. We focus on anger, fear, sadness and joy, which is the exact same emotions with slightly. It is mine. Just mine. Just rhymes. I like that. I like that. I like that kids like that. And the colors are so good because not only do I love to see the world in shapes and colors and feelings now, but it's just our natural way of being.
Just literally this morning, I'm making breakfast for my kiddos and my five year old Sepia. She's like, Dad, do you want to sit down and color with me? And of course, my serious, task oriented adult brain is like, no girl, I gotta go do this thing. Like there's a lot going on today. I just, I just made them breakfast, but I literally paused today of all days and turned around and said, yeah, let's color.
And so I sit down and again, just like being with her, observing her, like she's so in her element, she's just coloring and she's drawing. And like, I'm sitting there just being still because I'm enjoying this moment and she looks up and she's like sensing I need directions. So she's like dad if you need some colors here, take these and if you if you want me I can help you write the story I just start smiling and laughing. She is so in her element of just being with the colors, being with the art. And then this is the best part, this is the part I love about watching my daughter and young children, is that when she's done, she's done.
She doesn't carry any of that with her, she goes off to the next thing. She might be dancing, she might be brushing her teeth for school. But it's just this way of moving through the world, and not carrying things, because I think that's what gets us into trouble. I think that's, a huge correlation to the stress, to the healing, it's just how much we carry with us.
[00:43:57] Heather: Mm hmm. I would agree.
[00:44:00] Ali: I feel like we could continue this forever. I want to be responsible with the clock since we're getting close to the hour. And if you're up for it, I would love to finish with a few rapid funfire questions.
[00:44:14] Heather: Okay.
[00:44:16] Ali: First, Easy. What's your favorite food?
[00:44:20] Heather: Um, cinnamon rolls. Really good cream cheese frosting and butter in the microwave.
[00:44:26] Ali: Wow. Those are my wife's definitely in her top three favorite foods. For Mother's Day, we make my wife Gabrielle cinnamon rolls. So awesome answer.
Next question. What animal would you be if not human?
[00:44:42] Heather: I think a panther. We did a movement class 1 time where we were big cats and I came right up against this other woman and we each held our own. We looked at each other and then felt within us that there was no competition. There was just our own personal presence and authority. And we turned our back on each other and walked away.
And I still carry that. Who you are is enough. I don't have to defend you and you don't have to defend me. You know what I mean? It's like, we don't have to fight. We can just be present. So that reminds me of the Panther.
[00:45:20] Ali: That is cool. I dig that. Great choice. Wow.
Okay. And final question. What is one of your favorite childhood memories?
[00:45:29] Heather: That's not hard. Camping, family camping. Just the whole experience of it. But I was given a freedom back then. You know, kids don't have nowadays, we don't have cell phones, but I would be gone for hours exploring, walking along the lake, reaching under rocks, looking for salamanders for frogs, not afraid walking into the woods, I remember even playing with fire.
Could, could firework in a jar? Fortunately, I didn't light a big fire. I was thinking, could firework in a jar? Can I put enough matches in a jar? But just the freedom that I remember having those days. You know, s'mores, family camping songs around the campfire.
[00:46:11] Ali: I love that. Camping has so much opportunity beyond nature, which is the one of the most obvious benefits for me for the things you just described to just energize us. We actually just took my kids on their first true camping trip, me and a buddy and his son so their was five of us.
And we drove out pretty far up to this beautiful remote lake. And same thing that you described, like, we're all running around, looking for rocks. Me and my buddy Tim were doing some fishing. The kids are playing, they're exploring, they're so curious about the fire. And it's like, because we don't have these big campfires in our lives every day, but it's such a magnificent form of energy. And I'm sitting there and explaining them. I'm like, guys, this is what people did before TV.
And they're like, what? I'm like, yes. And I'm like, just watch it. And of course it'll entertain you if you just watch a fire, if you're really there with it. I love that answer. Yeah. Camping. It's like one of those things that I hope comes back. I hope people give it more prioritization.
It's easy not to camp these days or to what I say, glamping and make it, you know, where you're not even really away or or with nature. But I truly believe camping, especially in a group of family dynamic offers great. Yes.
Well, that's a perfect place to end. This was a gift. I knew it would be. I think this might be one of future conversations, Heather. You, you are a wealth of wisdom. You're also really fun to talk to.
[00:47:51] Heather: Oh, thank you. This has been a delight.
[00:47:53] Ali: Yeah, I enjoy your energy. You're very spirited. And I feel like we just got the tip of the iceberg with this conversation.
[00:48:02] Heather: Yeah, you know, when I retired, I realized I know a ton. I know a lot.
[00:48:06] Ali: I believe that. So thank you.
[00:48:09] Heather: Thank you Ali, for this beautiful, this beautiful space. And us holding space together. It's all about the space about the space. It's all about the space.
[00:48:21] Ali: Well said that is a beautiful place to end.
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He’s an accomplished human and one of the smartest people I know, but that’s not why I value his friendship, or why I had him on my podcast. I enjoy Tucker’s presence because he’s REAL. And he brought a very real conversation to this episode.
We dive deep into why Tucker chooses a sovereign lifestyle. We discuss his journey into homesteading, his perspective on learning vs decision making, the power of living on land, and what it means to be an avatar.
Being an avatar is not a basic subject. In fact, it’s something that very few humans have the capacity for being. I think Tucker is one of those rare humans. I’ve witnessed him change lives, wake people up, and spark more awareness in the world. He’s also been an impactful part of my own journey, which I’m grateful for.
I appreciate Tucker for his authenticity, conviction and dedication to speaking his truth. He doesn’t hold back in a world that makes it easy to hide and stay asleep. I’m excited to see him walk his path.
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Today I have a friend, a special guest, Mr. Tucker Max. Tucker and I met through way of FRD, Front Row Dads, and one of the things that's interesting that I sort of share about Tucker is that I've had very few but potent conversations with him, some of which we'll probably talk about today.
But I appreciate those conversations, Tucker, if I haven't told you before. They've been inspirational and helpful, among other words I could use. And my thing on this show is to allow guests to introduce themselves. So, who is Tucker Max?
[00:00:43] Tucker: Oh man, well, right now, I spend my time, I have a 50 acre homestead in Dripping Springs, Texas. And so, you know, we got sheep, chickens, bees, all that kind of stuff. Planting, all kinds of stuff, so, I work on that, and I have four kids. All under nine, nine or under the oldest is nine.
And so two are in the school that I helped found. There's a Waldorf in Dripping Springs. And then one is being homeschooled cause there weren't enough kids for a class at the Waldorf. And then one, is just like little, she's a year and a half.
And so, yeah, so homeschooling one of my kids and building my homestead, man. That's pretty much it for right now.
[00:01:23] Ali: That's exactly why I wanted to record this is that you're doing some things in the world around homesteading that are inspiring.
I also think that parts of them are courageous and that's my interpretation because I want to do similar things. And so as I learn and explore this with you, let's start with the homesteading. So what sparked this?
[00:01:49] Tucker: Well, I mean, my wife and I had always wanted to be on land. We wanted it to buy land and kind of live on it and whatever. And it was one of those things where, you know, most people for most things, they want like, oh, one day or we're going to, you know, we're thinking about it or, or this is what we want to do.
And we were definitely in that space about land. And then 2020 came along and lockdowns and the massive expansion of, you know, governmental authoritarian power, and all the riots and all of the other nonsense.
And we were like, okay, like, I thought I was awake and understood the world and I did in a lot of ways. But, there was a depth to it that I did not understand and that, that really woke me up in. The moment where I really was like, "oh, shit, we have to get on land" was January 6th of 2021 when I watched a news feed of a bunch of drunken doofuses being led into the Capitol. And then in real time, the American media tried to tell me that that was a dangerous insurrection.
I was like, no, that's just not true at all. And it's funny because I spent 20 years in media. I know they lie about everything. But to watch that and then like all the subsequent stuff, like, I mean, there's what, 30 or 40 people in jail now, like who literally were let into a building. In what amounts to, a little bit of a ruckus, but what amounts to an America, at least a peaceful process.
And, um, I was like, all right, that day, I realized that, that I don't know when the American Republic fell, but it was over. And we were not just, we were long past the American Republic falling, we were now in the empire collapse stage. And I was like, "Oh shit." Like I missed this Most people have, but nonetheless I like to think I'm smarting ahead and I wasn't at that moment. I was like, oh we need to get our shit together.
And so we'd always wanted to get on land and it was like let's go. So I took us a little off on the right place, but we did. And so now I went from being like most people, I lived in a city, you know, I bought all my food at a grocery store. I was absolutely, completely dependent on other people for everything.
And now I own my own water supply. I have two water supplies, both of which are fully owned and contained. I own my own meat supply. Like, I make all my own chicken, I make all my own lamb, and when I say I make, I mean, my sheep are born here, they live here. I kill them here, I gut them here, I hang them here, and I butcher them here. They never leave my land.
Same with chickens. Uh, we do meat chickens as well as eggs. So, I mean, I have 90 something meat birds in my freezer right now that I raised this year here. And so like, meat, uh, I don't do Cows on my land. I decided to not, we had cows for a while, but I decided not to.
But I get my meat from a rancher who is about an hour away who I know personally. Who literally puts nothing in his cows, except grass and water. No anti parasitics, no vaccines. He's way beyond organic, like he's. He's religious about like. And so all of my meat is either an owned supply or it's from someone who sees the world I do and lives right by me.
Most of my vegetables, we get farmer's markets or whatever. And like, power supply, I have multiple supplies. I'm on grid for power because I'm not a fool or Amish, right? So of course the grid's working. I'm going to use it, but I have multiple backup supplies.
And so we live a life that is in most ways normal. But last winter in Texas, in central Texas, we had a massive ice storm. An inch of ice was on everything. And in Austin power was down for three days where I live, power down five days. Literally, we did nothing change. You know, we have generators propane, like we have everything.
And so it was like nothing changed in our life. Right. And so, I've created a life where not only am I not dependent on other people for a lot of things? I, of course, I don't make my own Mac books. Like, I mean, obviously I'm still in the world.
But for the very important inputs, water, food, et cetera, I'm not dependent on others. And more importantly than not just dependent on them, I think most of what passes as food and water and other things are poison. And I'm not involved in that system anymore. And like, I don't have to check all my labels at Whole Foods anymore or worry about whether they're being honest about where they're sourcing stuff because I either do it myself or I know who makes it and I know them and they're my friend. And I can just go to their farm anytime and see what they're doing.
Right. And so, you know.
[00:07:01] Ali: Like, you went back to how things were before we became so complex and...
[00:07:06] Tucker: In certain ways. In certain ways. Like, you know, when people talk about living off grid, that's such a fallacy. Even the Amish are not off grid. Seriously, no one is off grid anymore. And I mean... almost literally no one. Because people are like, how are the Amish not off grid? They don't use electricity.
I'm like, "okay, where do they get their tools?" They use iron tools, right? They use steel. So where do they get those? They're not mining the ore. They're not smelting it. Like they are on the petrochemical grid. Everyone basically on Earth now is, right. So there's no such thing as off grid or on grid.
You're on grid. The only question is how reliant are you on other people for all your inputs? And how insulated from grid shocks are you? Like I'm not fully insulated from all grid shocks if someone nuked Houston, I'm gonna be effected.
But like, just as an example, if all of a sudden the U. S. government decided to cancel all currency and roll out central bank digital currency and try and, you know, all this nonsense. Like the two main, what three main ways they're going to get people to do that is food, water, power, right?
I can't withstand forever. No one can, but I'm not reliant on any governmental entity for those systems. Right. And so, like, I can live in a different way. My goal is, is to be as sovereign as possible. There's no such, it's not an on off switch, right? You're not either sovereign or not sovereign. There are degrees of sovereignty. And not everyone wants to be sovereign.
I do. Not free. Free is a different thing. I want to be sovereign, meaning I decide. I get to have full choice over my life. Or as much as possible. I'm a human, I still live in this world. I don't get to decide which laws of physics I obey. Right. But, um... sovereign among men. I want to be a sovereign man, meaning like I get to decide what I do and what I don't freely.
[00:09:18] Ali: Totally. That is a very comprehensive answer to the why. You even kind of noted on some of the things that I was follow up curious about around some of the challenges, but I think it's really again, I'll just use the word inspiring, because I make up a story that what you're doing is not easy.
[00:09:38] Tucker: Yeah, it's not. No, sovereignty is not easy, man. Sovereignty is almost always the harder path. Because if someone else is willing to do the hard work for you, yeah, that's easier, dude. There's a price for that, right? And I like to say that any responsibility you have that you abdicate will be taken up by a tyrant and used against you.
I think, I think Jordan told me that. Uh, Peterson, like he's a good friend of mine and like, we were talking about something and he said that I was like, that's exactly what I was saying, but way, way better. And it's true, you know.
Now here's the reality, man. Most people are okay with accepting at least some level of tyranny in their lives if it's more convenient and easier. And you know what? Fine. That's their decision. And I used to, even though I didn't think I was, I used to be that way. And you can probably point out areas in my life where I'm still doing it now that I don't really realize I'm making a cost benefit analysis or et cetera, et cetera, but like, that's whatever, man.
Like, if other people want to be slaves or be half slaves or quasi slaves or wear golden handcuffs or whatever, that's their decision, not mine. I it's fine. I'm not going to do that though. I've decided it's not going to happen.
[00:11:02] Ali: I've sensed that. Like I said, in the few conversations I've had with you, I sense that you're very with your decisions. You don't necessarily preach or tell people what to do, but here's the thing that I've also observed with you, which I think is one of your gifts, at least that's how I filter it.
Is that sometimes you share or speak with such conviction that it's like, I told you this before, I'm like, "holy shit, has Tucker changed my mind on this?" Like, I used to think this, but like what he said makes a lot of sense. And the way he said it, I'm like, I don't feel like he's making this up. Like, I'm observing your body language and I'm like, he's so grounded in what he just said.
So where this goes to. Um, the question I don't think I've asked before is. What's your process for learning? Because I sense that you have your own way of being in the world and then being curious and then learning something and then back to this component of sharing it.
So I have to go all the way back, like, how do you learn?
[00:12:07] Tucker: What's my process for learning or for deciding? Because what you just talked about leading up to that was not about learning, which is, both are great questions. They're just very different things.
[00:12:17] Ali: Answer the one that speaks to you.
[00:12:20] Tucker: Um, well, the one that's more in line with what you're talking about is not learning, right?
Like a lot of people focus, you know, like smart internet people focus on learning. How do I learn more? They think it's about information. And there are definitely times where that's true. Like when I got out here and got on land, like I knew I didn't know a lot about various aspects of homesteading. But I think I severely underestimated how little I knew.
Like I didn't know what an impact driver was as opposed to a screwdriver. Right. Um, or, uh, or a drill. Sorry. And like, I had no concept of any of this stuff, some of the most basic things I'm like, "Oh, I didn't know that."
Right. So there was definitely an information gap for me. But filling an information gap, nowadays is trivially easy. Like, honestly, it's breathtaking to me to think about if I had moved on and tried to homestead, let's say, what is it 2023? Let's say 20 years ago, how fucked I would have been. Where the hell in 2003 would I have learned all this?
Like, I would have had to hire somebody who, you know, someone who's been doing this for a while, but, you know, lives in the country, whatever, to teach me all of these things. The things that are, you are right, that would be basic skills for a 12 year old 70 years ago, I don't know anything about. But today, bro, YouTube.
YouTube, YouTube, YouTube. And it was like, simple, and like, So funny, like a lot of my friends who come out here from like, city are like, "Wow, how'd you learn all this? You must be so smart." I'm like, you have YouTube too. Like, there's nothing, how'd you do that? I'm like, I watched a video and literally just did exactly what he did.
And so it's funny, we were processing meat birds and someone came out and they're like, How did you learn all this? I'm like, there's thousands of videos online that literally show people doing this exact thing.
Which actually brings me to kind of back to the point. If there's a scarcity now, it's not on information. It used to be. Like almost all of our institutions and all of the common wisdom that humans operate on is based on the idea of a scarcity of information. That is gone. At least right now.
What there is a scarcity of... I think, are things like courage, decision making, wisdom, effective judgment. Things like that, right?
Like I can go on YouTube and find a video to tell me literally how to do anything on this homestead. And I mean that like almost totally literally. But like, what should I be doing? What do I need to focus on? In what order? What's the most important thing? Like that's judgment and wisdom, right?
And there's a scarcity of that. And then the level above that is what I would call self awareness, right? Like, what do I even want? Like, why am I on a goddamn homestead, like, making things with my hands? Why? What's my ultimate goal? Like, where am I trying to get to? What's my goal?
And so understanding, which you can call self awareness or values or whatever, which actually brings back to your original question, why did we get on land? And I gave you a very sort of a good answer, but it was sort of like, what's the trigger that, that woke me up that made us actually go get land.
We wanted to be on land before and why? I'll tell you why, because, I think this gets to what, the core of what you were asking. I think. We had a belief before we came out here that being on land would enable us to connect better with ourselves by connecting with nature. And it was in certain ways, the pretty naive belief.
I can just say like the way I thought about it then was naive. Now I can tell you having two years out here, I was right. But I was right for reasons I didn't really understand. I was a lot more right than I realized for reasons I didn't really understand.
But being on land has been... let's say I'm totally wrong about the way I see the world and everything. Yeah, there's, you know, some stuff going on, but let's say everything's basically safe. I don't need to have my own water supply. Let's just say for safety reasons, I'm way off base.
Okay, cool. Like, let's say I knew that to be a fact. I would still want to be here. And I would still be very happy with being here. I would just have spent too much money on things like, you know, a big rainwater catch catchment system and like, and two generators, and I got way too many fucking bullets. Like I would have wasted a quarter million dollars on various security things or half a million, whatever on what I did, I just, I don't need it.
But I'm still super, super happy I'm here. Because what land does, especially if you're working land, land animals. It forces you... um, force you, it enables you in some ways it does force you, but it enables you to really reflect on yourself and get honest with yourself. Yes.
Like if you live in a city and you want to lie to yourself, it's really easy. In fact, all the skids are greased for living in someone else's reality and buying into their world and not actually having to think about who am I and what do I want and what would that cost me. And I don't just mean money. And what are my values and all that.
Like it's so easy to just to live in Austin and vote Democrats and believe what everyone else believes and whatever, right? But land forces you to test your beliefs. Being out here does. Being in nature in a lot of ways.
And like, I mean, I can have all the ideas in my head and the world about sheep. And about coyotes and about dogs, but their interaction is independent of my beliefs, right? Like, I may think coyotes shouldn't kill sheep. Coyotes don't care. They get a vote too, right?
And so, like it, it forces you to really look at yourself. Especially if you're in a, a mind space, like where I think you are, and I, I have definitely been the last 10 years. And when I met you, you already were of true, honest self reflection and self awareness.
That's been the greatest gift of this land is that it has not just tested me. Cause you can find tests. I mean, I can go to a CrossFit gym and test myself until I die. It's not just about testing yourself. It's about forcing you to face yourself and your truths. And then your interaction with the world. Right?
Because like I said, out here, I can't live in this world where I'm the only thing that exists. You know, everything else out here gets a vote too.
Does that all make sense?
[00:19:41] Ali: Beyond making sense, I mean, it's very real what you're sharing. And thank you, I appreciate the note. Because self reflection, awareness, is arguably the most important word in my life in the last several years.
Just owning it, like you said, facing it. And that feels like the gravity that pulls me, that makes me really fascinated and intrigued by what you're doing. And it's such a, I'll go back to it's such a real answer because if there's anything, I also love to speak up about its nature.
My version of what you're doing is getting into the mountains as much as I can. And I come back and I'm like this different version of like, wait a second. There's all these people and they want things, and they've got all these crazy ideas that don't land with me like they used to.
Whereas there's something very, very pure and like almost brutal, acute to face in nature. It just kind of guides you back to yourself, and that's how I would describe that, so it's beautiful.
What it makes me curious about, Tucker, is that, what do you see in your children now? Because they're with you, they're with themselves in this experience.
[00:20:52] Tucker: So, I think my wife and I already did a pretty good job raising our kids, but it's been way better since we got out here. Because what land has enabled, now the kids have all their own space that they want, right?
And also like they live in reality. Like, they don't live on screens. So, for example, we just processed a bunch of meat birds. And one of the other FRDs actually came out and helped us with his daughter. Chris Bartik. I don't know if you know him. But he came with his daughter, and they're great, man. They're like, kind of in this world, too.
And like, when I say process meat birds, we take birds that are alive. And we kill them and then do a bunch of stuff to them. So they are now a whole bird that goes into the freezer that we then eat. Right. And so like, my kids had kind of like done it a little bit with me, but they'd never really gone through the whole process.
We have like 40 to process. It's like a lot of work, dude. This is hard physical labor. And these are pretty big six, seven, eight pound birds, right? I mean, they're not huge, but these are living things that don't really, you know, don't really, I don't know, like, oh, yeah, let me just go die, right?
I mean, chickens kill themselves all the time. They're idiots, but they wanted to live. And so, I kind of did the first few. I showed Chris and his daughter and my kids, and my wife, like, okay, here's exactly how we do it. And then we kind of set up an assembly line. And what ended up happening is my nine year old, Bishop and then Chris's nine year old, he's got a nine year old girl, and they were really into killing the birds, right?
So we'd assemble them into these small cages so we don't have to chase them everywhere. And so they would go in, they'd open the cage, they'd get one of the birds. They'd put it in like a kill cone, like it's this cone, upside down cone, you put it in, you pull its head out. And then this is actually really, honestly, the safest, most humane way to kill the birds is you just cut their throat and they bleed out, doesn't hurt really much at all.
And it's a pretty calm death, right? And it's actually way better for the meat. When they take them to processors, what they'll do is stun them first with like a little stun gun, you know. And so the birds kind of like unconscious. The problem is it doesn't drain a lot of the blood out. And there's other issues that are kind of weird.
We do it just straight to wall style. Like we cut their throats. And so like at first the kids were obviously like a little, you know, uh, even my kids who've been around a lot of death, cause that's what homesteading, that's what meat is. Is at its core is death. But like they kind of got into it, not in a morose way. Because you know the first couple ones we said a prayer over we understood like, okay, this is you know, we can't contextualize fully everything. But bro by the end my nine year old his nine year old were like totally into this right.
And like they wanted to do a good job. They wanted to make sure the birds weren't suffering. Like, they're not just sticking the knife in. Oh no, it's bleeding everywhere. We don't know what's going on. Like, they were doing it right. And they, like, were really into it. And so, like, death is a part of life for them now.
Yeah, it's important and it's impactful, but it's not some traumatic thing. And they understand when it's appropriate, how it fits in, how to do it the right way, all those sorts of things. So these sorts of things that can be really sort of weird and traumatic for kids now are just like a part of their life.
And, and they, they really love it. They like it. You know, we go hunting all the time and like, I'll shoot a deer and then we say a prayer over it. We think it's for sacrifice and whatever. And so like when my kids eat chicken or deer, you know, like they're like, "Oh, this was when I was hunting."
Like food is not a thing that comes from the store to them. Right. And death is not an abstraction that we don't talk about. Food comes from their land that they raised and death is a part of life. Because it is, so it's actually a part of their life. They're now so mature and so connected to themselves, because they're connected to the land. Because they understand this is all one big system and we are a part of it and here's how we connect to it.
And like my emotions are part of me and that's part of the system. If I'm angry trying to kill chickens, things things aren't going to go well. If I'm centered and focused, things go well for me and the bird. You know, I don't cut myself, et cetera, et cetera. So my kids just have a... they have such a self possession that honestly, I don't really even think about until like, we'll go, let's say into town and then we'll like maybe go to a park or something.
And then I'll see them around kids who like are on their screens all the time, eating sugary crap and totally disconnected from reality. And I'm like. Oh my god, those mongrels, like, ugh, like, I don't even think of my kids as being that great or different until I see them around an average kid.
In a city, and I'm like, "Oh, wow, dude." It's, you know, we feel, yeah, I know. And it's not like a kid can't be healthy in the city. Of course it can't like, they have friends who live in Austin who parents do a pretty good job and they're like, whatever. But like, I'm talking about the average kid. It's shocking to me, dude.
How, I mean, obviously we did this. I know we're outliers but I don't think about it that way until I'm looking at some kid who's the same age as mine, who seems developmentally three years behind, who has serious behavioral issues, who, you know, I'm just like, oh, man. And then I see their parent, who's really, honestly, head in the phone, not really that different.
I'm like, oh, well, this is the opposite of sovereignty. This is what happens, you know, if you make different choices.
[00:26:32] Ali: Well, I love so much of that. And I would share that even here where we live in Denver and the suburbs currently, my children go to a nice public school that should probably be a private school with how well it's funded.
And there's this shock that I feel and even sometimes absorb when I take them or bring them home from school and their environment. And while it's hard to not judge, I'm in agreeance that there's a part of me just like, wow, this is, It's a very different experience what we do in our home, and then what my good friend just recently described as "consensus reality," the way everyone else wants to be.
And again, I'm not trying to judge, because that's not the intention here. It's just like, whoa, it's so clear to me what's going on, and these kids have no idea, the parents aren't even present. And so back to your point, what's missing from the equation? Amongst several things, land, connectedness.
Yeah,
Then this segues into the last big thing that I was curious about because we've talked about this and this is where I have a lot of energy and it's a place where when you speak to this, I feel that there's parts of you that know this is perhaps a way for you to inspire or even a calling. And I'm going to use a word and I'm actually going to give you the freedom to go wherever you want with this. It's the word avatar because you've taught me things about that word and...
[00:28:08] Tucker: You can tell the story if you want. I have no problem or I will. Like that it's a. It's a funny story. Because like you guys looked at me like I was fucking nuts that I remember and I don't blame you, bro. I don't blame you. Someone had said that to me when I was at a lower level of consciousness or you know different. Different evolution time might have been like the fuck are you talking about you weirdo?
Totally like that's why I wasn't even upset. I'm like, yeah, dude, I get it Like it's fucking weird. Yeah
[00:28:37] Ali: I love well, this is the context i'll give. And then again, I would actually, I want you to share what.
[00:28:43] Tucker: Okay. Yeah.
[00:28:45] Ali: Is that I think there's a lot of people in the world that perform. And at the basic level, I think they're performing for external validation, right?
So we're talking about land and finding yourself and really aware. And so that's not an avatar to me, especially when I heard you say it a few years ago. An avatar seems like someone who answers a call to be a beacon in maybe...
[00:29:16] Tucker: No, no, no, hold on. They answer a call for themselves. They don't answer a call for any reason outside of themselves. Ever.
So the way I would define an avatar is someone who Answers a call is a good way to put it. Someone who, let's say, lives the true vision of their life. Right? They don't necessarily have to be enlightened in the Buddhist sense. But someone who does the hard work of their life... and comes to some realizations or lives or embodies a certain life or idea.
And then, through living their truest self, they become an example for others. That's it. So like the famous avatars in history are people like Jesus or Buddha or Krishna, or, you know, go down the list.
But you don't being avatar doesn't mean you're famous, right? Like, I think my godfather was one. And he's not famous at all. If I told you his name, you wouldn't know. I mean, he was very, very well known in his little town that he lived in and very influential and impactful, but like, it's not about fame.
Some of them just happened to become well known for various reasons. I mean, the only reason Jesus is super well known is probably because of Paul. Right? And the efforts of Paul and the people after after Paul. And which is not a knock on Jesus. Just Jesus didn't care if he was famous. Paul did.
So, so that's just kind of how it works. Right? Same with Buddha. Buddha didn't care, but his disciples did.
And so, there's actually, it's craziest thing, bro. If you study Jewish history, the Jews have a name for avatars. They call them charismatics. And there've been hundreds in Jewish history that like are very, very similar to Jesus in a sense.
Not necessarily preaching the same message, but, are like very good. Very persuasive. Not all of them are what I would consider avatars, but they're close enough. Cause like the charismatic can range from what I think are basically con men to people to Jesus being one, like he's considered one of the great ones.
Anyway, so the point is, in this group, there's like four of us were talking and forget what the question was, it was something like, what are you focused on? And I had just, like, two days before, had a meeting with someone who... it was very unnerving, man. Like, you ever meet with someone who I don't want to use the word psychic, because that brings up a lot of different associates, but someone who just knows shit about you that they shouldn't know, that doesn't make sense?
Not like. Like, I can talk to you and read stuff really well, but I don't meet people and I'm like, "Oh, your dad's middle name is Sam." And like, I don't like that... it's not right. But if you ever met someone like that and you're just like, the fuck is going on?
I had two days before that FRD, I had met a woman who basically was like, confronted me about...
She didn't know me. She didn't know nothing. And she's like, "Wow. I've. In my whole life, I've only met two of you." And I'm like, you met two people named Tucker max. No, no, I've never met anyone. She's like two avatars. The fuck are you talking about?
Without going even further into, like, crazy lunatic weirdness... basically, this woman called me out on this. She's like, "look, you know why you're here." You're here to live the most truest self, most authentic self you can. And you have the skills to talk about this and be an example to a lot of people. And she's like, "you've already done this. Right?"
And no, she wasn't like a fan who read my book. She didn't know who I was at all in any way, shape or form. And I was like, yeah, I mean, I kind of have. And she goes, yeah, no, you haven't, you haven't really done it the way you're supposed to yet. Like that was just practice. And I was like, who are you? You fucking witch what's going on.
[00:33:12] Ali: But there's a part of that that you knew is true for you, right?
[00:33:14] Tucker: Oh, a hundred percent. Yeah. Like, it's not like she came up to me like "you should be in the NBA" or some nonsense. " There's so much more to you than people realize," like you can say that to anybody. Or no, no, she was like, very specific with some weird stuff.
And like, I don't know what fully was going on. I'm not going to pretend like, Oh, here's... but I do know that I had that in my head a lot at that point and I was thinking about that. And so like I just brought that up because even then and right now, in certain ways I still haven't stepped up man, like, I think the next major step for me is finishing my next book, right? My memoir. My next memoir.
And uh... man, I still haven't done it. Like, that's a concept so hard, dude. This one's rough. I don't mean to sound like arrogant, it's just true. I know everything there is to know about writing memoirs. Like, you're talking about information?
Not only could I, but I probably should write the definitive book on how to write a memoir. Like, there are great memoir writers in the world, and there are people who know as much, as I do, probably. No one knows more. No one knows more than I do on how to write a memoir, how to tell your story.
That is maybe the thing, if we're talking about specific skills, that I'm the best at in the world. If I'm not the best, there's like five or six of us and we're all right there together, right? You know, it's like an all star team. Like who's the best person? Oh, whatever. We're all on the all star team. It doesn't matter anymore.
But dude, this one's kicking my ass because it's not about information. It's not about skills, right? You can't information your way into courage. You can't information your way into self awareness. You can't information your way into feeling painful emotions.
None of that's about information, man. None of it. Information might help if you're stuck at certain levels or whatever. But like I said, like there's no, there, there doesn't exist any more information about writing memoirs that I could definitely that I need. And even if I like, uh, it just, there's nothing left.
I know it all. Right. And knowing it all is not getting the book written. Because telling your story is ultimately a therapeutic process that involves a lot of self awareness and reflection and emotional work and feeling and courage and love and all these higher difficult emotions. And so it's... if I could information my way there, I'd be done.
[00:35:46] Ali: Wow. I mean, that's powerful because... well, thank you. Thank you for first sharing that beautiful definition of an avatar. Cause I was about to butcher it. So you got right back on track. And then thank you for right here and now being open and just expressing the challenge.
Because like we didn't even talk about that. And it's such a cool part of your history. It's not why I wanted to talk to you today about supporting people writing books, but yes, you've done that, you know that game better than anyone else. And that's cool for you to have the awareness to be like, well, now I gotta do this.
And there's no way to just like fake it, make it. Like you gotta, you gotta own it. You gotta face it. Mm. That's real.
[00:36:33] Tucker: I mean, that, I don't know what else, like, that's it...
It's one of those things, man, where it's actually, it's pretty simple. It's pretty simple to figure out. It's just not easy to do... you know.
Courage is not complicated. It almost never is complicated, like very rarely. They exist. There are situations where it's like.
Like it's a moral dilemma, like a true moral dilemma where you really don't know which path to take. That definitely exists. I don't want to pretend like it doesn't, it does. But, it's pretty rare. And almost every time, whenever someone tells me, "Ah, I got a huge moral dilemma," I just start asking questions.
It's not a fucking moral dilemma. They know exactly what the right thing to do is. But there's a lot of con... what they'll say next is, "It's complicated." It's not fucking complicated. We make it because complicated is almost always, not always, but like 95 to 99 percent of the time, it's complicated is a defense against a difficult hard decision that you know is right that you don't want to make always. Virtually always.
[00:37:56] Ali: What's coming to me, it's such a simple and arguably cliched term, but we say it a lot in this house when we really own our decisions. And it's "Hard choices, easy life. Easy choices, hard life." And that's the underlying theme here, which is so real. It's so easy to bypass that, but you just gave example .
And I step back and pause on that a lot. "Can I break this? Can I prove this false?" But most of the time it's true. It's like, Oh, the real decision is the harder decision, which leads to the truth, the awareness, the freedom, man.
Well, that's a lot. Thank you. I have a few quick funfire questions if you're up for it.
[00:38:37] Tucker: Do it.
[00:38:39] Ali: The first, what is your favorite book?
[00:38:45] Tucker: Oh, man. Yeah. All right. If I have to pick one, With no, like, no limitation, fiction, non fiction, no, no, no, like without, cause like, my, the better way that I prefer to answer this question is, you know, what's my favorite book, and give me a really niche category, cause there's so many. But if I could only pick one, I would probably have to pick Confederacy of Dunces, by John Kennedy Toole.
In my opinion, it is the best novel, ever written, at least in English. People who speak other languages heavily disagree with me in certain ways. And that's fine. They might be right, but in English, I think that's the greatest novel ever written. That's probably the book I've re read the most in my life. I'm not counting my own, but that's different.
[00:39:34] Ali: Very cool, dude. That has not been shared, so awesome.
Question number two, what animal would you be if not human?
Don't say sheep.
[00:39:47] Tucker: Fuck no. Sheep are idiots. And they're food. No. Man...
That's a tough question, man.
Um...
[00:40:00] Ali: What's your decision process right now? Are you, are you envisioning?
[00:40:02] Tucker: I'm thinking, I think about what life do I want as any, right? Like, like what experiences do I want? And then the other thing is I like being really highly conscious, right? And I mean, that more of like as in intellectual way, rather than a spiritual way. Although, the two things are not directly connected, but they're often interrelated.
And, so I'm trying to think what's a highly conscious... like, high cognitive ability animal that has a life I would like. Man, I want to say dolphins, but I know a lot about dolphins and they have pretty, like, brutal social structures, man. It's not an easy thing to be a dolphin, dude.
Maybe orcas, although they're pretty fucking mean, man. Like, orcas are, like, kind of like little sociopaths, dude. And I'm not like, uh, you know, trying to, I'm not even killing stuff for fun necessarily. But they're very smart, very, well, I told you a dog. Awesome. Bear. Yeah, um...
I was thinking about dogs, but dogs are too servile, man. That's not my style. Um, if I have to pick, I'll pick dolphin. Okay. But that's one I would actually have to really think about.
[00:41:11] Ali: Cool. Alright, I dig it. Yeah, dolphin's a great answer. And what about elephants? Are they conscious enough for you or no?
[00:41:21] Tucker: Elephants are very smart, man. Very, very smart.
But, again, I'm thinking about, my assumption is you mean right now? Yeah, right now. Elephants are not in a good spot now, man. Ah, okay. In terms of where they can live, their environment, they're quite subject to human intervention. Whereas dolphins are not, no animal is, uh, immune to it right now.
But, dolphins have a lot more potential sovereignty than elephants.
[00:41:50] Ali: That's fair. I dig it. Last question, Tugger. What's one of your favorite childhood memories?
[00:41:57] Tucker: The first thing that comes to mind is it's a very simple thing. Um, it reminds me so much of my third kid, Deacon. Um, my parents weren't really very good parents. And for the most part, the people that really loved me and weren't like parents in my life were my godparents, Jane and Bill. Like the guy I said, Bill, I think Bill is an example of an average common man avatar.
But like, one of the happiest memories... is happy is the wrong word, more content. One of the most content, like almost all my memories with Jane and Bill are like this, but there's one very specific. It's so weird.
I used to love as a little kid, like about the age Deacon is now like four. I would sit in front of the TV like Bill would be behind me and he's a kind of lazy boy.
And I had like this little chair thing that was on the floor, and it was super comfortable. And they had these Wooden parquet bowls, you know, like parquet, the Bossa Garden parquet floor. And, um, Jane would feed me Doritos and give me Cranberry juice. This is back, like, before Doritos were super unhealthy.
I think they still fried them in tallow then. And so I would literally just eat bowls and bowls of Doritos and drink cranberry juice. And it wasn't as sweet then. Like, people don't realize, young people now, don't realize how fundamentally different food was 40 years ago, 45 years ago. Even like quote, junk food was not that junkie and not that bad, before seed oils infected everything. And sugar.
And so it was like the sourness of it. And I can just remember like, I was so content and so happy, with them then. And it just reminds me of my four year old son, Deacon. Like he, he had just sit with me and mommy on the sofa and eat pretzels and drinky, like still sparkling water.
And like, he loves his little pretzels and like, he just happy as a pig and shit, man, like all day, just like I was at that age, with that. So that's probably my happiest kid memory.
[00:44:00] Ali: I love that, dude. I love that not just because I felt it as you're sharing it and I was trying to like envision this, uh, Tucker enjoying his Doritos, but dude, I fucking love Doritos as well.
And so it's amazing the nostalgia, whereas even today, like, occasionally, I buy Doritos and I know how bad they are. I even tell my kids, I'm like, yo, there's a reason we don't have these a lot. But there's something about eating them and I still lick my damn fingers because that's what I did as a kid, dude.
[00:44:30] Tucker: Oh yeah, oh yeah. I remember.
[00:44:35] Ali: Great answer. Tucker, thank you, brother. This was a pleasure. It always is. I appreciate you for creating some space for this. I appreciate for how you show up. Anything left unsaid before we wrap.
[00:44:47] Tucker: I don't think so. Thank you my man.
[00:44:50] Ali: All right. I will say this then. I have aspiration at some point to visit the Max ranch, if possible.
[00:44:58] Tucker: Dude. I mean the doors are open. We have a guest house. Like come come bring your family. You have two kids or one kid Yeah, right exactly. And what are their ages again? Five. Right? Let's say six and three or six and four is probably about when last time we talked, dude, like my kids are 9, 7, 4, and a year and a half.
It's a perfect fit. Anytime you wanna come, we can slaughter a sheep if you want or not. We, you can just eat the stuff that's already dead and butcher. Now, dude, we do, I do like, I, I was already a good cook. I grew up in a restaurant family. But over the last two years, I've become a really fucking good cook.
You know, I sold my company and like, my wife is working on scaling her business. So like I do all, I already did most of the cooking cause I was just a better cook than she was, but like now, not only do we have badass ingredients, but I've gotten like, you know, like I didn't grow up making tzatziki sauce, right.
But I'm like, we have lamb now. So it's like, yeah. And so I've gotten like. badass at like things like taziki or caesar dressing. Or i make all these vietnamese sauces that go amazing with lamb. And so like bro i'm a pretty fucking good cook dude like we do like a lot of badass stuff so anytime you want to come.
[00:46:11] Ali: Believe it and i appreciate that invitation.
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I’m excited to experience 2024 with new energy, focus and commitments. As we turn the corner into a new year I thought I’d share my end of year practice with you. This is a practice I’ve been doing for a few years now, and as it evolves I’m finding more value and structure with the work.
This episode covers my approach in four phases – rest, reflect, reset and refocus. I offer some insight into each phase, some questions to guide you, and some things I’ve learned from my experience.
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So this is a practice I've been doing for a few years now. I've been experimenting with things and testing them. And as it evolves, I'm finding more value and structure to the point where I feel like it's share worthy. Like something that could help people. It may be something small, it might be the practice at large, but I want to share the work.
And in essence, for me, the new year presents opportunity for us to be intentional about how we look at our lives. Here is a nice little excerpt I wrote and shared recently as it relates to opportunity.
The new year offers an opportunity to rest.
Step back from your normal routine and demands. Break your discipline. Sleep in, take naps, and play more than you normally do. Go back to your wild child self. Get out into nature, away from all the distractions. Give yourself the gift of space.
The New Year offers an opportunity to reflect.
Celebrate the experiences that gave you energy. Learn from the experiences that were out of alignment. Honor the people that made a difference. Amplify the things that helped you feel more alive. Sit with these memories. Be with them until you realize everything they've given you.
The New Year offers an opportunity to reset.
Restart your life with a fresh perspective. Face your truth with courage. Let go of anything that no longer serves you. Accept the things that have been waiting. Clean up your beautiful messes. Integrate everything.
The new year offers an opportunity to refocus.
Clarify your intentions and priorities. Reimagine a future that lights you up. Create the map. Rebuild your engine. Bring focus to what really matters in your life. Drive forward with purpose.
Every new year is an opportunity to create space.
So, that's a little excerpt. It just kind of flowed through me while I was resting over the holidays and really reflecting. And what I want to do now is dig into these four different opportunities. So first, let's start with rest.
And I'm going to share my experience with this. Again, take what's useful. Let go of anything that's not.
So I prioritize rest during the turning of the new year and this includes avoiding normal work. So, disconnect from email, I disconnect from Slack, I basically disconnect from normal communication with people that requires work.
This does not mean friends and family, I actually make time for them. But I stay off devices as much as possible and I get away from my normal work. I sleep more, I take naps. I try to stay bored and that's important because I actually want my mind to wander in beautiful ways. I want it to have the space to not be under stress or pressure of the normal demands of life.
And I remind myself to get outside a lot. I try to hike, I try to walk, I try to explore. I do those things rigorously, daily. And I play more than usual. So I play with my kids, my wife, my dogs, anyone else who wants to be more silly or competitive than usual. Just playing, sport, activities, games. And finally, I try to avoid things that are going to distract or numb me, like lots of alcohol, lots of sugar, other stimulants.
This is the hard part. You know, the holidays is a time often spent with family and everyone's to cook and create these amazing treats, which I do still indulge in. But I remind myself to give my whole system rest, which is giving my whole system a break.
So next is reflect. This one is big for me. I take intentional time, multiple days, to look back on the following year and really dig in to meaningful things, meaningful questions.
For example, what gave me energy? What drained my energy? Where did I feel challenged and most alive? Where did I feel out of integrity and more asleep? What surprised me? What were my biggest failures in the last year? What did I learn from them? What were my biggest accomplishments in the last year? And what did I learn from them?
So this is an opportunity for me to challenge myself to ask deeper questions and really answer them honestly. You know, don't bullshit them. Don't sidetrack them. Like answer the questions with intention with integrity.
And I want to note that deep reflection is not done quickly. It requires time and space So again, give yourself the gift of space when you're taking time to reflect. You cannot rush through it.
The last thing with reflection is time with no demands. So in this sense, our normal lives are filled with lots of demands, requests, tasks, responsibilities. And so if you're going to reflect, try to create an environment where you can do it with yourself with way less tasks, requests. Basically, alleviate yourself of having external needs from other things that don't come from you.
And of course, spend more time in nature. I do my best reflection in nature. Hands down, it's just the best environment where I can really sit. Whether it's with a journal or just myself, my thoughts and reflect on all the beautiful things that happened in the past.
Next is reset, and this is all about integration. This is arguably the messiest part. The reset and integration phase is where we learn to let go and accept things. So this is where we've got things that we just have to let go. And we start to get clarity around that from the reflection phase. So after reflecting, we have all these beautiful experiences, all these learnings, all these failures, and now as we reset, we start to identify what's no longer serving me. What do I need to let go of?
And this one, aside from being kind of messy and a little bit more challenging, even painful, you got to be brutally honest with yourself. At least that's how I approach it. I really face these questions with more courage, with more integrity, so I'm not bullshitting myself. And really look at the things that have been lingering around the things that I've been like, said... not accepting, that have been waiting.
And I speak these things out into the world or write them down so they don't get stuck in my head. That's a pattern that humans are really good at doing. We think things, especially challenges, the messier parts of life, and we don't often speak them out into the world, whether it's to ourselves or to others, or we write them down. And so they just stay trapped and they consume so much energy.
So this is the opportunity to reset, to let these things out, to feel them with your full being, all the emotion, all the energy. And then really let go of things or integrate things that you just need to accept. And I found that looking at pictures, journal notes, old videos really helped me dig back into some of these experiences.
Even different cues like songs or words that were set in specific moments. This is a really cool way to kind of identify some of these things that just need to be reset or integrated before you can move forward. And again, the point of the reset phase is to clean up the mess. It's just like spring cleaning.
So throw things away, move things into new places, give things to others. A reset is a powerful way to cleanse before we move forward.
And finally we have the refocus. So this for me is the fun part. This is where we get to plan and create the vision for the future. Refocusing involves looking at what you want to prioritize and create in the next 12 months.
I use a lot of mental models, templates, blueprints for creating a sense of things and experiences that map to my vision. So for example, I often start with What? Clarifying the priorities for the next 12 months and naming them.
Some quick examples to help you get creative here. Give my body and mind a cleanse, invest in my personal growth, decrease my stress and anxiety, start a new passion project, right?
So we're just getting the things out that are important to us that we want to create in the future. And then we have to establish the how. So this is where we specify how we're going to achieve them with tangible targets. For example, using those same what's, the how's behind them: 30 days without alcohol, a five day personal growth retreat, 90 day meditation or breath work challenge where we do 10 minutes every morning. Create a website and an email list for your new passion project.
So you see how we're bringing specifics and details to the what so that we have a way to track against them and realize them.
And finally is the when. So now we need to establish the dates and the seasons to align with these priorities. And my suggestion here is to put these in a doc so you can look. I like to do it monthly. Just to see all 12 months coming up. And that way you can say, Ooh, I got two things in March. That's full. I don't have space for anything else.
And you can really lay out whether it's in a doc or a spreadsheet or just a nice little drawing of sorts, you can get a sense of what the vision looks like. And what months feel full, what months feel don't. Like I love to travel in the summer, the spring and leading into the summer. So I'm not going to put a bunch of big projects there because I know I'm going to be out exploring, leading retreats, doing things where I'm away from my normal environment.
The last thing too, with the when is really blocking time for this. So you don't need to put every single detail, but I do block off time on my calendar. That way I know that this time is reserved. Because if you don't block it, someone else is going to create a priority for you. And your time is just going to slip away. So, it's a really nice practice to look at your calendar and just block these dates off.
Even if you don't have all the details, block the week off, block the long weekend off, block the couple days. Give yourself that time so that when your priorities show up, boom! You're ready for them.
I Wanted to create a few questions to again, to spark some curiosity, some creativity that could help you craft your vision.
So I'll use some of the space principles and we'll start with self. So what is one thing that could change your life for the better in meaningful ways this year? What scary thing or trauma have you been avoiding? Where do you want to grow the most? Physically, mentally, emotionally, or spiritually?
Next, a few questions around purpose. What important mission or calling have you been ignoring? What has God or the universe been trying to tell you? Where do you feel you have the most opportunity to help others?
Next is art. What kind of project or work inspires you right now? What hobby or side project would you love to pursue? What did you create as a kid that you haven't done in years?
Next is connection. Who are the people in relationships you want to prioritize? What existing community do you want to further invest and pour into? What new community do you want to explore?
And finally, environment. Are you living in an environment that lights you up? If not, what's really stopping you from moving? What travel or trips do you want to experience with yourself, your family, or loved ones? What home improvements could you make that align with your values?
So again, just some questions, you know, create your own questions. It's all about great questions.
And last, I'm going to wrap with a few key things that I've learned from doing this process for several years now.
So first, spend as much time as you need. Some people might blow through this in a day or two, and that's fine if that's your process. But I take over a week. You know, I start this process as we're entering the holidays, which is like Christmas. I'm with this process the full week until New Year's, and I'm still in it.
You know, we're a week past, a week after near at this point and I'm still finalizing my vision. So I give a solid two plus weeks to this. I create the time and space. And again, most of that is time disconnecting so that I really have the opportunity to realize clarity, right?
That leads into crafting your environment. So, again, be intentional about where and when you do this work. It won't be effective if you do it amidst all the holiday chaos and distractions. I actually this year had several days alone over the holidays when my family was traveling to be with our family in St. Louis. And this gave me the beautiful space I needed to really reflect reset and refocus.
Next is create targets and commitments. So crafting a vision can be tricky if you've never done it before. That's why I wanted to give you these examples, some questions. It's really easy to say things like be healthier, invest in personal growth, get outside more. And these are fine, but they have no targets. They have no commitments to be realized.
So to bring a little bit more precision here and accountability, just refine them, give them some more details. So instead of be healthier, exercise 30 minutes, four days per week for 90 days. That is concrete. That is actionable, right?
Instead of invest in personal growth. How about attend a personal growth retreat or event in the summer? So look at your schedule. Know that you have some time in the summer. And then do the research to find the retreat that speaks to you, right? Shameless plug, I will be doing a mountain summit retreat in the summer, and I would love to have you if that type of experience speaks to you.
And also, get outside more. It's easy to say. Instead, how about do at least one two hour hike every month? Or, walk every day for at least 15 minutes. You see? So just bring some precision. Bring something to this so you can stay accountable and you can track it.
And that leads into another point, find accountability. If you really want to hit these targets, share them with a friend or loved one. The power of accountability is real. We know this as humans. It's very easy to fail ourselves. But we do not like failing others. So I encourage you to speak these out into the world, to share them with people so that they can support you, and you can have some healthy accountability.
And one other important thing as it relates to the refocus phase, is that I like to choose a word for the year. So originally I would just choose it for myself, and it's evolved into this really cool thing where I choose it collectively with Gabrielle, my wife. And we've started to learn the power of choosing a word for the year.
So again, it used to just be about me, now it's about our family. And this word is kind of an anchor point. So two years ago, the word was adventure. And we honored that. We took more trips than ever. We explored the world. It was amazing. We also learned a lot of things about that. Last year, our word for the year was challenge.
And we lived that as well. You know, we challenge ourselves in new ways. This year, our word for the year is action. And so, it's a strong word that you can remind yourself of and you can anchor a lot of your priorities and commitments to.
And believe me, it can be easy to be like, "ah, it's just a word." But, it's amazing when you're intentional about creating this word and choosing it, how it will just show up throughout the rest of the year. In all the years that we've done this, that word just has a beautiful way of showing up.
So think about your word. Choose a word that represents some things you want to invest in, the energy you want to evoke this year. And then let it be your anchor, your guide as you move through the new year.
And finally, do not take on more than you can handle. It's really easy to just craft this massive vision and then you get a week or two in and boom, your willpower gets crushed. Your whole plan collapses. So I like to approach them more humbly, a little bit more conservatively.
Set some healthy priorities, some targets, some ambition. But be mindful of too much. It'll easily overwhelm you and then like I said, you'll feel stuck and defeated. So humble suggestion, I like to pick three big things and then a dozen or so smaller things.
So for example, leading a retreat is a big thing. Even attending a retreat, is a big thing. Starting a podcast. A lot of my friends have talked about this. That's a big thing. Okay. Family trip to Europe. We did that last year. It was epic and it was a big thing. It was a huge thing, right?
Whereas if we look at smaller things, lead a zoom webinar, right? That's a small thing. You can pull that off. Create 12 blog posts for the year. Another small thing. That's one a month. You can work through that, without the pressure and the weight of having to constantly like grind. Take a local camping trip. Another small thing. So, in healthy contrast of like big retreats or big family vacations, just get out locally and do a camping trip or an epic overnight hike, you know.
And that's it. My intention here was to be quick and clear and concise and just give you a little bit insight into my world as I turn the corner. This time is really important to me. I've seen it impact a lot of other lives. People I've worked with, people I know. And I'm wanting to be more intentional about sharing this and at some point kind of crafting a template or a course or something that people can follow.
Because I believe with conviction that being intentional about how you round the new year can really, really impact the way you show up. It can impact your health levels, your quality of life. And it's just been a beautiful gift for me.
So I hope there's something in here for you, and enjoy the new year. It's going to be exciting, more podcasts coming, more retreats, more content. So I look forward to being with you soon.
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Sachin also shares his view on who the doctor of the future is. Spoiler alert: it’s not him! He shares simple but powerful ways we can take ownership of our own health and wellness. My family has been practicing some of Sachin’s methodologies for years now, so it was an honor to have him speak to them on the podcast.
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I appreciate Ben for his curiosity and integrity. He’s showing up for himself, his family and his community in a very authentic way.
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["episode_quotes"]=> bool(false) ["episode_transcript"]=> string(74443) "[00:00:00] Ali: Welcome back, folks. Today, I have Mr. Ben Gibson, fellow Front Row Dad, who I met at FRD live last year in December. Had an awesome time, we played some ball, we got to chat a little bit, understood a little bit about your background, and just who you are, but not enough, which is why we're chatting today.
There's a lot of stuff I want to get to, Ben. And on this show, I like to let people introduce themselves. So how would you introduce yourself today? Who is ben Gibson?
[00:00:34] Ben: Yeah, thanks Ali. Excited to be here, man. And, I will also add context that while we did play basketball, mostly what I did was run around and throw the ball into the air. And it made no contact with anything. So yeah, I am not the guy to pick for pickup basketball, but I did have a great time with you.
So I would say first and foremost, I'm a dad and a husband. Those are my main priorities in life. The things that really give me the energy that also really pushed me to grow as a human.
But I I'd also say that I am uh, I'm adventure curious. I am constantly curious about ways that I can go out into the world and I can explore and I can get my hands dirty in the outdoors. And that's in all fronts, the mountains, the oceans, the deserts, whatnot.
And, being that my roles of dad and roles husband are most important, I try to find ways to combine those things. So, you know, how do I integrate the people I love with the things I love? So I'd say that that's really how I introduced myself as dad, husband, who also happens to try to drag them out into the woods and the mountains as much as I possibly can. Yeah.
[00:01:43] Ali: Totally. Yeah. As I was, uh, snooping on your Instagram profile after we chatted a few weeks ago. And it's beautiful, dude. It's the type of stuff that lights me up. I see you on mountains. I see you skiing. I got a great laugh at a picture of you, like sippin some wine with your, uh, youngest, who was probably very young at the time.
You know what I'm talking about? Just like "parenting's easy." I love that because it was playful. It's like, parenting's hard, really hard, if you're balancing the things you love, like adventure, while still prioritizing being a dad and a husband. So, your Instagram, Ben, is something that I feel shows authenticity. A lot of times I run into Instagram profiles that just look like a straight up performance.
And so, I love that you're kind of living into what you just spoke to. And, as it relates to that, my first question comes right into the balance of your role as a father and a husband, and then The Ben that wants to be adventurous. Did you always have this balance? Or was there sort of a journey into making them blend? Making them integrate?
[00:02:58] Ben: I'd say, oh absolutely not. No, and I, and I think it's, something that I am still I don't know if struggling with is the right word. I think of balance is like balance is certainly at least for me, it's not like I'm going to put an equal amount of time into all things, and there I have balance. But it really is just this oscillation between things, you know, investing in 1 and then investing in another. But we can't really do those things at the same time in as many ways as we'd like to.
And so, I think because seeking to achieve balance is so fluid, I don't know that anyone ever really like nails it long term. And I certainly haven't. I don't know that I've ever fully achieved it. And I don't know that I really have it now, you know, fully transparent.
And, I think it is really in the pursuit of balance that I find a lot of that. Those benefits come from. And so, yeah, I think it's a thing that I've tried to be more conscious of, especially since becoming a dad.
You know, when you become a husband, certainly those priorities shift, right? You want to make sure that you're showing up in a different way. But it's also like, you still are like with your friend and you can take your wife with you on these things and not a whole lot, maybe changes on the balance front. But kids kind of rock your world in terms of balance because it's a 24, seven round the clock job.
And I think a lot of us realize too, that it's not just about showing up and clocking in and clocking out. But like, oh, wow, if I want to show up more in line with these grandiose visions that I had of how I thought I'd show up as a dad, like, I also have some homework that I've got to do on the side and then I also have to do my job as a dad.
And so that's where I think balance became really challenging for me, especially when it came to my physical pursuits. Because it was easy when I was just married, no kids to be like, Hey, I'm going to go climb a mountain for three days. I'm on the sat phone, you know where to find me. But with kids, it's like, there's so many other factors that come into play and it's a much different, more serious conversation than just say, I'm going to be on the mountain for 3 days.
But, yeah, I think that that's why I've had to be much more deliberate about it. I would say it's, it would be so much easier for me just to be like, well, these are important to me. So, like, yeah. I'm just going to go do them and like whatever chaos ensues at home ensues.
But again, coming back to like, that's not how I want to show up and that's not how I want to be. That's not the model I want to set for my kids and it's certainly not the experience I want for my spouse.
So yeah, I think it's been a big focus lately. And for me, it's like, I feel like I'm constantly coming with more questions about balance and answer and kind of like forcing my way through the never ending fluid battle of trying to achieve it.
[00:05:41] Ali: Yeah, that's real. That's very real. It's interesting, Ben, because I used to really grip that term work life balance, especially as I became a father. Like you said, all the new chaos, all the changes came and I was like, whoa, and balance was just thrown off. And I was, I remember now that we're talking about this, I remember just like you said, trying to pursue this like beautiful vision of equilibrium. Like, yo, I got everything here and here and it's all just great.
What's interesting, too, is that I didn't use to like the term work life integration. I thought balance was way better. My ego mind was like, nope, it's gotta be balanced. Forget about integration. Whereas now I'm actually starting to come around to look at the other side of that equation saying like, Oh, to your use your words, balance is this never ending pursuit.
In some ways we're just a constant uphill battle because it is quite tricky to feel that and preserve that balance. Right. But integration has been a very powerful word in my world recently. And now that we're talking about this, it's reminding me that I see the integration of the things you said, investing in different things, as a better path towards the way that I'm showing up the way that I'm being in the world.
And I appreciate just your candor there. Like it's not easy, whether it's balance or integration, doing the things we love and caring about the people we love and giving it all energy can be exhausting.
[00:07:15] Ben: Yeah. And I think of it like there's like a sequence of it. And I guess I'll preface this by saying that I don't think that not achieving balance is necessarily a negative thing, but that the constant pursuit of trying to attain momentary balance is actually beneficial for us.
Because it's one of those things where I think that there's a lot of ways in our lives that we find ourselves needing to like, sharpen our axe, to stay sharp, to stay on top of our game. And so if balance was something that like we sought out to achieve and we achieved it and then we're like, cool, I'm balanced. Uh, that's it. I'm done. Then we've stopped growing. We've stopped challenging ourselves.
And odds are, if somebody feels like they've got a good balance, I'd probably challenge are you being ambitious enough in your life and your pursuits? Do you have enough that you're trying to accomplish with your life, with your family? Or in order for you to feel confident, they're like, yep, got it all figured out.
Whereas like when I'm constantly trying to find that balance, it makes me better at what I have to do, because it means that I am that much more present. And I have to learn how to be present. I have to learn skills and frameworks of how to be present.
And also these little things around the house where it's like, okay, to invest in my family before I go on a trip, I have to be that much more thoughtful. I've got to think about meal plan. I've got to make sure. Coffee's ready. There's flowers for my wife. Like there's there's all these other things that I need to include to truly make sure that I in this moment have achieved balance.
And I think that healthy, constant pursuit shouldn't necessarily be perceived as a negative or I used to get myself a really hard time of like, like, why can't I figure this out? Why am I so out of balance? As opposed to like, Okay, This is something I'm never going to nail, but it's in that momentary achievement of I, I feel like in this moment, the things that I have my focus on, they are equally invested in.
But to your point, too, of this idea of integration. Like, I think there's like a 3 step approach and part of being in that process of trying to achieve balance had to really sit and distill these pillars for me to be able to deliberately try to go after.
And so I think the first one is this idea of modeling ambition. Going out, being ambitious, going after your goals, going after your work pursuits, your physical pursuits, your family pursuits. Like all those things are an important piece of showing up, I think, as your best self.
But there's there's a component of that where now you have to really focus on trying to achieving balance. And that's, I think, the easier of the two when we think about balance versus integration. And so balance is something that is often done in isolation. So like you may be investing in your family, but then you leave to go do this other thing and leaving those responsibilities behind is way easier.
Then the third piece, which is integration of like, how do I bring those responsibilities along with me so that there's no distance between the people that I love and the things that I love.
And I think that those three work together in kind of a beautiful harmony. Because there are times where I can't bring my family along, right? There's no way to integrate. It's just not possible. I'd love to bring them on to a mountain in Alaska, but it's just not feasible for a one and a half year old. Right.
And so that's where that separation is okay. And I think that that's where you have the responsibility to invest in them equally, invest in before, invest in after, be present, et cetera. But the integration piece, man, that's a hard one. That's a really hard one because it requires a lot of creativity, a lot of sacrifice sometimes.
Like there's a lot of times with the integration piece where it's like, cool, I have a three hour workout today. And I'm going to try to bring the kids in a stroller with me on this three hour run. And anyone who has tried to do anything with a child for more than 30 minutes knows that there's a lot of shit that goes into that, right?
Like I need three hours worth of snacks. I probably need three different distraction mechanisms. I need to look at the trail and I need to know where I'm going to be able to let them out and run around. So it's actually not a three hour workout. It's probably a six and a half hour day with dad that I'm now planning for.
And, like, somebody's gonna lose a shoe, somebody's gonna need a full outfit change, like, there's all this stuff. So, like, yeah, sure, much easier for me to go, how about I just set you guys up for success and then leave. But, man, the integration piece, how about I take you with me for three hours. Like, dude, if you can achieve that, like, that's, like, next level dadding, husband for sure.
[00:11:39] Ali: Dude. Totally. Wow. I love that. I love so much of that. I love the three, these pillars, these words are using ambition, balance, integration, how they can flow and be together. And then you segued right into what I wanted to kind of talk about next is adventure.
Mountains. Getting out, whether it's solo versus kids. There is a difference as you explained. I want to zero in though on one of your recent adventures, which really piques my interest, climbing Denali.
Tell me about that in terms of right in focus of what we're talking about, kind of preparing to leave and then being gone. This was a multi week adventure, correct?
[00:12:22] Ben: That's right. Yeah.
[00:12:23] Ali: And then just bring your pillars in what happened? Where was the balance? Where's the integration? Cause you're now you're what? A couple of months from it?
[00:12:30] Ben: Yeah. Several months removed from the adventure. So yeah, we spent about a month on the mountain total. You know, the way you get on to Denali is it's so remote. It's way out in the mountains of Alaska. So the way you get on the mountain is you get dropped off on this essentially like modified bush plane that lands on a glacier.
And then you're out there. And the only way you get off the mountain is if a plane can come back to that same glacier and pick you up. So sometimes you're waiting to get on, sometimes you're waiting to get off, which actually happened to us on both ends. But yeah, see, we were out there for about a month.
But you know, this was for me a really big leap in my physical pursuits. And so right from the bat, I knew that like the hardest thing for me wasn't going to be preparing for the climb or the climb. It was going to be all the other stuff, the family stuff. And I don't want to diminish how difficult it was to prepare and to do it. It just is, I think sometimes emotional weight is much heavier than physical weight, right?
Where, and I was talking with a fellow dad friend of mine who's a big athlete. And we were just talking about this idea of like, Man, when it comes to physical pursuits, like we can push through just about anything. Like any amount of pain for any amount of time, we can always kind of like muster the strength to push through it.
But man, when it comes to emotional weight, sometimes that first you know, confrontation or first mistake or whatnot, man, that just we break, we totally break. And it's like, why can't we apply the same mentality for our emotional weight, our emotional challenges as we can for for physical ones?
And so, for me, I knew that the, the emotional weight of this trip was going to be really heavy. It started with a conversation with my wife, probably about a year and a half before I actually was going to commit to doing it. Because I knew it was going to be several conversations and I needed to come really prepared for that. You know, out of respect for my wife, I needed to have a really clear why.
You know, here's why this is really important to me. So that there was something that was really grounding the conversation and purpose and meaning and not just like, well, this would be cool. It's like, this is why this is so really important to me.
And I think that that's important because it really it creates this like mutual buy in for the ask that I'm about to make. And then through those first several conversations, a lot of it before I even knew if I was going to be able to do this was ideating with my wife around what would this even look like for the home stuff?
Like, okay, I'm going to be gone from a month basically. And not even just that. In committing to doing this, I'm basically training for a year before doing this, which means that I'm not just asking you for a month to watch the kids. I'm asking you for these very long training days for a year. For me being annoying with what I want to eat and how I'm thinking about my diet during training.
And me being annoying on vacations when it's like, "Hey , I know we're on vacation, but like I got to go for a run. So I need to wake up at like four in the morning to go and I'm just gonna, I'm going to meet you guys." And like, all of that is it goes into it. So it's not just like the event itself.
And then, of course, like most well laid plans, they often need change. And so it was talking through not just like, what would this look like? But what are all the potential implications of the plan changing?
Like, a big thing for us is that my oldest son, who's four now, he was born preterm. So he's got like, chronic lung disease. And so anytime he gets sick, he basically gets hospitalized. And so we had to think about like, okay, well, what if you're, you know, 20, 000 feet up this mountain in remote Alaska, only accessible via like text message on satellite phone... and he has to go to the hospital and we have a one and a half year old. Like, what do we do? How does that play out? Like how fast can you get off the mountain to get home?
And so it again starts with all these initial conversations of thinking through very honestly, like what's all the downside? What are all the things that could go wrong so that we can try to put a plan in place for that? And I think that that's a lot of where if you're going to try to achieve balance or anything of this nature, like you've got to be really pessimistic about the approach.
Because I think where some people maybe fail is they think like best case. Like, well best case, nothing goes wrong. It's so easy. Kids are great. That never happens. Right.
But if I think through all the things that could possibly go wrong, and I'm very honest, and aware and planning for those things, more likely we're going to fall somewhere in the middle. Some shit's going to go south. Some things are going to be better than expected, but like, we've prepared for those contingencies. And so I think that that was a big part of our balance is like, just being very honest around, like, how's this going to go?
And then, you know, there's the preparation for it. And this is where I felt like I needed a lot of help going into this. So I talked with as many people as I could that found themselves in similar situations of dads who have been on Himalayan climbs and dads who have done like rowing across the Atlantic and things like that.
And basically asking them, "like, what were your wins? Where did you feel like you dropped the ball?" And just trying to like piece together some interesting things. And so much of what I think helped make this go well is helping make the day to day successful. It's always like the little things, right? Like, Can we get meals ordered in advance so that my wife doesn't have to cook every night?
Like everyone, every parent knows that like, man, the nights that you decide just to kind of tap out and just order food, you're like, Oh, bless DoorDash. Like no dishes, no food, like, Oh, it's like vacation at home. Right. And so like, how much of that can I iron out in advance of it? And so I said, yeah, that was a lot of the balance piece.
And then the integration piece was fun, like trying to incorporate my kids in as many of the training days as I could. You know, throwing them in the stroller, throwing them in a pack. You know, the good thing about your kids getting older, if you're a climber, and you need to carry heavy stuff up a mountain is that as your kids get older, they get heavier, and they can, they can just be thrown right in the back. And it actually works out really well.
And then my wife actually printed out the route for our wall in our dining room and cut out my head. And so every day is on the mountain as I would provide my updates of where we are and how it's going, my son would move my head kind of up and down the route to know what that is.
Yeah. And then I shared with them in advance kind of like , you know, there's always very prominent features about where you are on the route and kind of shared that with them so that they knew that, okay dad's at 14 camp. And then he could like, see pictures of 14 camp and learn about it. And mom could read about it.
And so, yeah, it was again, a lot of, like, almost like disaster planning. Like, what all can go wrong? How do we plan for that? But then how do we thoughtfully weave them into this process in as many ways as we can?
[00:19:09] Ali: Wow. Oh man, there's so much in there as I'm listening and learning, Ben. And we haven't even got into the, that's just planning.
That's just prep.
[00:19:20] Ben: Right. Yeah. That's just thinking about it. Yeah.
[00:19:24] Ali: Okay. So I want to reflect some things back to you. First, I love how much intention went into this. That you saw ahead. You proactively reached out to other dudes, other people. I know a part of me would have just been like, "I'll figure it out."
I really love how thoughtful you were. And how you brought this convo to your wife consciously way in advance, knowing that you'd need a year to plan.
And, dude, you're spot on. It's like the little things. I was just talking to Gabrielle about this this morning. Like the little things are often what cultivate into the larger things or kind of trigger some subconscious stuff that it's a little bit deeper that we don't even know what it is yet. And just taking care of those man, whether it's like meals or just getting some people to like pop in every now and then to help, especially with young kids is massive.
So very wise of you there.
The thing that I have to come back to and ask, though, before we go into what it was like to be on Denali, is what was your why? If you could summarize that.
[00:20:29] Ben: Yeah, I would say my why has always come back to this idea of transformation.
Like when I was a kid, I wanted to be an astronaut because I wanted to go to foreign lands untouched unseen by most human beings and experience what that would be like. And I think that's where I talked about at the beginning I'm like adventure curious. Like so much of me is like, "God, I wonder what that would be like, I wonder what that would look like to see that with my own eyes to experience that with my own body."
And so for me, this idea of transformation when it comes to climbing was understood very early on in my climbing career, probably onto my very first climb. When I realized that the person that went up the mountain was not the same person that came down the mountain. And that it took me like weeks after a climb to figure out, well, who came down?
Because it's a different person now. And something's changed, something shifted in my perspective and in, in my identity with myself.
And so mountain became not just a physical pursuit, but almost like a spiritual pursuit. Which is profound for me because I didn't grow up with a religious background. I really struggled with spirituality and religion as a young adult and never really found a place for me to like buy into any of that until I was on the summit of a mountain. I feel like we have all different definitions of God, but I tell you, I touched God when I went to the summit of a mountain, it was transformative.
And I realized, that my soul was telling me, " We do this now, this is a thing that we do. This is very important to us." And so for me, with my wife, the why was a lot around that continued transformation. And like most things, in order to grow, in order to continue to grow, you have to continue to challenge yourself to a greater degree.
And on many levels, this one in particular was going to be challenging in so many different aspects, the physical, the mental, the emotional, the logistical. And so that was really the why it was like, I feel like I have a purpose in my life to go out and pursue these things because I feel like it's an important part of who I am as a human and how I continue to evolve as a human.
[00:22:39] Ali: Mmm... I love that. Dude, I love that for a variety of reasons. The first is that I too had a... deep fascination with space as a kid. And it's still like, it's still arguably the top of my bucket list. I still want to explore space.
I've started to realize how beautiful this earth is. There's a lot more that I want to see of it. But deep down, like I geek out around like going to space and just kind of exploring. So we are definitely aligned there, brother.
The other thing is that I wholeheartedly agree with you on the symbolism of mountains. I was raised with some Christian upbringing and even I was exposed to like other religions, the mosque as a young kid and nothing really landed.
I mean, I was seeing it, I was hearing it, but as I started to really dive into nature as an adult and find my way up mountains, literally, it became how I interpret spiritual experiences, just like you. And so it's beautiful. I think that more people are speaking up and just recognizing.
That everyone has their own spiritual journey and I, I respect all of it. Some people, it is the church, it's the physical church to go sit down and find God. For me, it's being on those mountains or being deep in a forest and just observing nature, observing myself and kind of getting lost in that beauty. So I wanted to just give you props for noticing that, speaking to it. It's a beautiful thing.
Let's get back to the Denali then. So the prep is done, not done, but the prep is ready. The family is engaged, ready and engaged. So you've got some cool stuff you explain with your wife and your son.
And then we already talked about this epic, like landing to get to the mountain, you have to get helicoptered in. So let's zoom right back to that point. You get helicoptered in. What's it like climbing this massive mountain?
[00:24:43] Ben: Yeah. I mean, talk about going to another world, like. When you fly in, you know, you start flying in over tundra, so it's green, it's pretty lush, and then you look into the distance, and you start to see these mountains rise up. But you go, wait a minute, I'm here to climb the biggest one in this range, where's the biggest one? Where's the biggest one? And then suddenly you see it, and it's so tall that it's still incapped in the clouds. And you're like, there's the one I've been waiting to meet.
And you've been thinking about this one for a long time, and you've been waiting to see it with your own eyes. There's something interesting about this idea of kind of coming back to what you said of like, you know, climbing a mountain is like a metaphor that gets thrown around. Like, metaphorically, there's a lot of power in this idea of mountains.
And I was always like, what if I, instead of metaphorically, did this what if I literally went up the mountain? Right. And so there's this interesting thing where you've been seeing pictures of Denali even seeing the route and then to finally see it in person, that in itself is like this greeting of "Hello old friend, I'm here to meet you. I'm here to greet you."
And so right away, it was like this very deep moment of you're the one that I've been waiting to meet. And we fly in and the mountains are getting higher. And what's crazy was when you fly in, you don't fly over the mountains. You literally fly through the mountains and see you're passing these crazy steep ridges of rock and ice and snow.
And then you make this really big swooping landing down to the glacier. And what's great about it, as soon as you land and the plane leaves, it's like you're on another planet, because that's your lifeline right there, right? Like that plane is gone, I'm on a glacier, and it's gone. It's on.
And so right away you get to work. Like there's no like, "wow, this is great." It's like, get your tent up. We got to boil water. We got to eat. We logistically, we got to get going. Because you got about like 120 pounds of stuff on you. And so it's a lot to manage the whole time. And so yeah, you, you really quickly understand from that very first moment that so much of your success on the mountain is not going to be due to your ability to climb well.
That is certainly a piece of it, but so much of what makes up your success is how well you can do all the logistical stuff. How efficient can you be? And the most efficient climbers are often the most successful climbers. And for many reasons.
So like we get to the glacier. We immediately start digging out a tent platform. So we're digging through several feet of snow to set a platform. We're collecting snow for melting for water. We're getting our meals together and starting to talk through the plan. And the thing is, is that you're not like dropped off at the doorstep of the mountain. Again, because you're on a glacier, you're kind of on like a fork of the glacier way down the glacier.
And so you're going to unload all your stuff. So that the next day you can pack up all your stuff and you can throw it in a sled and you can walk, you know, about seven hours down the glacier to just get to the base of the mountain. So the thing that really struck me right away was just like the sheer scale of everything. Like, mountains have this weird thing where they're often so big that they seem like they're just right there.
Oh yeah, it's like right there. Right. And then you're walking for like hours and you're like, why are we not there yet? And why is it still so far away? And you're like, oh, it's so big that the scale is thrown off. And so when it takes you seven hours to get to the base of the mountain across this glacier that is literally miles wide, it just makes you feel the scale of the peaks that are surrounding you, everything is so big.
And so you get to the base of the mountain. And I don't like, I don't like like these terms that like military or like conquering that to apply them to mountains because I think that a lot of people when they're like, "I'm going to conquer the mountain."
It's like, ah, you're not. Like the mountain can flick you off at any time, it's indifferent. But you're essentially laying siege to the mountain in that you are very methodically bringing your gear up and down the mountain. Establishing camps so that you can get your supplies up the mountain in an efficient way, but also to help you acclimatize.
So you land on the glacier at like 7,000 feet. You get to the base of the mountain at around 9,000 feet. And the summit of Denali is a little over 20,000 feet. So from base to summit, it's actually more distance to travel than even a peak like Mount Everest. And so the up and down acclimatization runs, laying caches, is such an important piece of it.
And the more efficient you are in that process, the more successful you're going to be because you're going to have more energy. You're going to be able to get food and fuel and rest in you more efficiently. So that becomes the game right away. How efficient can I be? How methodical can I be in my process to conserve energy and get things going?
So yeah, the scale is enormous. You're way out there and there's also just this incredible sense of like disbelief. "Like, I can't believe where I am right now." I can't believe that there's like these international teams surrounding me right now. Like, Oh, the Polish team is going up. Oh, the Japanese team is going behind us.
Like, it's just this really cool moment where you pinch yourself. Like, wow, I'm kind of like playing in the major leagues right now. And then to come back to the kind of the mountain you're waiting to meet. There's also these like really almost like kind of like when you're a tourist and you're like you go to New York City, you're like, I can't wait to see this.
This, you know, historical thing. It's like, you're so excited to see these like features of the mountain. Like, I can't wait to get to 14 so I can see the Messner Kulwar that people ski or to be able to see the Kassin Ridge, because this epic climb that took place on that, that ridge. And like all the stories and history. I mean, I could talk for probably weeks around the particular adventure, but like, those are the initial things that really like come to mind when it came to the mountain.
Was just this sense of disbelief, this focus on efficiency and methodically moving our way up the mountain. And just the sheer gratitude of playing in this, enormously unimaginably big playground.
[00:31:09] Ali: I love that dude. Yes. And this is so great because like for someone like me who aspires to do bigger mountains like Denali, I've never done something that big. Not only is there just like pure wisdom in here, but it's things that I just wouldn't know. It's things that I wouldn't assume.
Like efficiency, like, yeah, that could seem obvious, but it's not the first thing that would come to mind as I'm training, like, gotta be efficient. Because I would literally probably show up there and be like, "this is amazing, like, oh, my gosh." But to your point, it's like, this is a journey and those who thrive and survive are efficient, right?
I also love the note about scale. Just being in nature's grandioseness and being like, "wow." And as you're describing this, Ben, I'm like, there with you. I don't know tons about Denali, but I know enough. And as you're sort of giving this visual experience, I'm just vicariously like imagining this vast white wonderland and my tired ego being like, "when are we going to get to base camp?" like hours pulling 120 pounds? Like that is serious.
Okay, so, to continue this story and also honor time, like you said, you could probably speak to this for hours, if not days. Tell us a little bit about the adventure to the summit. What was that like? Did you make it? What were some of the biggest challenges, whatever comes, whatever feels like share worthy?
[00:32:37] Ben: Yeah, absolutely. So I think the really interesting climbing on Denali happens at 14,000 feet and above. And I think that that's also where things start to get really real on the mountain. So something happened our first morning climbing at 14 camp that really took us out of that sense of like wonder and really back into grounding like, this is the real deal.
Very serious things happen on this mountain all the time and things change very quickly. So we're packing up our stuff to go up to set a cache. So we're going from 14, 000 feet to like 16, 500. And to do that, we have to go up these fixed lines. So they put fixed lines on mountains where they're very, very steep.
And so this is like 45 to 60 degree plus, some of these sections is like straight up blue ice, which is like the hardest ice you can possibly be climbing on. And the whole climb, the whole day up from 14 to 16, five is straight up this like very steep wall.
We're packing up our stuff to go do a very hard climb and we see all these rescue helicopters coming in. There had been a storm above 16, 000 feet for the last week and a half. So teams had been pinned down, stuck in a storm, above 16, 000 feet, typically at our 17, 000 foot camp. And so right before we're about to leave, we see them long lining a body off the mountain.
And that's not a good thing, right? It was shocking. I felt tingly. I felt numb. I was like, oh, boy, like, "all right, let's go climb this thing?" It really was kind of a shock to the system. And again, a reminder that this is the real deal. And so going up 14 that day was really stressful.
You start to question things like, "What am I doing here? Like, this is insane. Like, I have kids at home? I've got a wife at home. Like, man, like, what am I? Why am I doing this?" And talk about efficiency, like that day in particular, going up the fixed lines for the first time, I was wildly inefficient.
So you get to the top of the ridge and you just had this horrible experience to start the day. And you're like, totally gassed getting to the top of this like knife edge ridge. And you're again, questioning everything.
So it's not just about like, "Oh, climbing is so wonderful and grandiose." But like a lot of it, especially for these very long days was filled with fear and filled with uncertainty and certainly a lot of self doubt.
I remember getting to the top of the ridge and for the first time being like, "I don't know, dude, I don't know if I can do this." Right. And thank God all we were doing was setting a cache and then going back down. But that was a very real moment for me. And then to cap it off that night was the coldest night on the mountain.
And to kind of put it into perspective on like how cold, cold can be. So I have literally every piece of clothing on that I brought with me on my body. And that includes basically what equates to like a fully Himalayan down suit. And then I've got a negative 40 degree sleeping bag. And then of course I'm in a tent with another person which, which helps with the warmth.
And I'm still cold. Normally, like you wear that on a 60 degree day, you are dying. You will literally die from heat exhaustion. And I'm sitting here like shivering in my down suit in a negative 40 degrees sleeping bag next to another human being being like, "Wow, dude, it's pretty cold."
And like that you think about 36 hours of those experiences of the long lined body coming off the mountain. Of wildly inefficient climbing that result in total exhaustion of altitude to all the sheer cold. I mean, it was the 1st time again where I was like, really doubting if I was going to be able to do this.
And so, you know, so much of the climbs is understanding that those moments are going to happen. Where talk about planning for contingencies. The thing that I think I did really well in this prep for this trip mentally was preparing for those mental contingencies of like, there's going to be moments where I am not going to feel my best and I'm not going to be confident in my ability to do this. And I need to be prepared for that.
And so I did that a couple ways where I literally wrote down expressions for self talk for how I would get myself out of that jam. I had a little playlist that I called it my head right playlist. So like, I got to get my head right. You know, what, what am I going to listen to?
And then I knew people that I might actually reach out to, to get my head right. And I actually did all of that, all of that was required for me. So I, I went through my mental self talk. I listened to my playlist and then I messaged a friend through a sat phone that, and I just kind of told him the deal. I was like, "Man, I'm really starting to doubt this. I just need a little bit of confidence boost right now."
And I think that was the start of the most satisfying part of the climb because the next day it was like a shift. It was like, it's game time, baby. Like we're going to do this, but like, we're also not fully attached to the end result of the summiting, right?
Summiting is a dangerous thing, especially on mountains at this altitude. You know, if the soul benefit that you derive from a climb comes exclusively from summiting, then you will not derive benefits on most climbs. Because if you're pushing yourself or if you're respecting the mountain, or if you're playing it safe, more times than not, you're going to get turned around.
Or, conditions aren't good. The weather's bad. You're not feeling it. You're not feeling right. Something goes bad with the partner you're climbing with. Something goes bad with somebody else. You need to jump in and help. So for many reasons, like, I try to detach my success or the benefits I get out of a climb from reaching the summit.
And so it was in that moment that I reminded myself the commitment that the most important thing for me to focus on right now is, you know, getting to the next camp. And really what that came down to the next day was literally the next step.
And that can seem kind of maddening for a lot of folks, but I actually found it was funny. I was talking with a buddy of mine. There's this weird thing that you do when you really need to focus and get into a zone where you, you count your steps, which seems like insane because you're literally walking for 12 hours. Right? So you're like, that's a lot of steps, but you do it in groups of like 50 or 100 and usually like the lower number that you are counting to the more shit that you're experiencing because you can't focus beyond 25, right?
So you're just like, get to 25 and then I cycle again. And that like repetitive mental exercise actually helps you really focus on things like efficient steps, breathing, focus, zone out, but be present. Like this interesting kind of mode you have to get into.
And I remember talking to my buddy after the fact. He's like, "were you counting your steps?" And I go, "yeah." He goes, "what were you at?" I'm like, "I was at 25." He goes, "ah, that was a rough day." And he just knew that because I was counting and because I was counting so low, he's like, wow, that's a rough section.
But so we climbed from 14. We pack up all our stuff. We get up to what's called the 16 Ridge, which is this knife edge Ridge that takes you from the high point of the Ridge up to your high camp of 17, 000 feet. And that next day was like night and day for me. I felt great. I felt terrible, but mentally I felt great because you're at altitude, right?
You feel kind of like crap a lot of the time. It's really hard. You feel tired, but I mentally, I was like, this is no problem. I'm just going to feel gratitude and enjoy this. We get to 17, 000 foot camp and what we found was a theme on this trip was that weather was bad almost the entire time.
Weather's bad notoriously on Denali, but it was extra bad this season.
[00:40:03] Ali: Like windy, cold, that type of environment?
[00:40:06] Ben: Windy, very, very cold, and oftentimes together, and then a lot of precipitation. And precipitation meaning like it starts to snow, right? And so, that combination can be very dangerous because they often happen almost Immediately.
I was shocked at how quickly weather windows would close and these massive storms would come in and bury your tent in snow. And so you were, it's also not like if it starts snowing and you're stuck, you're just like, well, I'll just hang out in my tent for a couple of days and chew on Jolly Ranchers.
It's like, I have to, I have to dig out snow all day, or I will be buried by this storm. And then you also have to like eat and go to the bathroom and like do all these like other normal things. And so it's kind of chaos when these things happen.
So we get to 17, 000 foot camp and we get to basically the last hard section of the mountain, which is called the Autobahn. And it's called the Autobahn because if you were to fall on this particular section, you would pick up speed as if you were traveling down the Autobahn and it drops off for a very, very long time.
And, there's fixed lines, but people still fall all the time. And it can create a dangerous situation because if you're, you know, not clipped into the rope or somebody is not paying attention, you could pull your whole team down the mountain with you. And so 17, 000 foot camp, like you're feeling the altitude. For sure.
And you're kind of mentally preparing for this next day. And the word that we got was like, we got a weather window of one day. And so we've got to get up, we got to tag the summit and we've got to get down all the way back down to 14 camp. So that's 17, 000 feet to 20, 000 feet back down to 17, 000 feet pack camp, and then immediately go down to 14, 000 feet down the fixed lines.
And so we know that like, Okay. Not only did we just have to come up the fixed lines from 14 to 17, we're going to sleep and then the very next day, go for the summit. And then after the summit, we have to go all the way back down to 14. So there's like this mental preparation of the ordeal that you're about to go through.
And here's the challenging part too, like icing on the cake, is that you don't sleep well at altitude. In fact, the first night you get to high camp, you have this weird thing cause your body isn't used to breathing at that altitude. So you wake up with these like deep gasps of breath, really. And you do that all night long. And so you don't sleep. And you're also like excited for the summit. And so you're basically awake for like 36 hours. And then you're going to do that whole thing.
We wake up for summit day, last hard push of the trip. And I thankfully got to witness the sun kind of cresting the summit behind it and just kind of like breaking apart the clouds.
And it was again, kind of that moment of like, there you are. I see you, here I am. I've come here to meet you. And so we get our stuff, we're feeling good, and we start working our way up the Autobahn. And it's very, very hard climbing. There's no footpath. It's meaning there's no, there's no like steps that somebody's already kind of kicked out. It's like very angled, steep terrain. I see your angles are busted.
And unfortunately, as we start to get to the top of what's called Denali pass, which is notoriously the worst weather on Denali, cause it's splitting the two summits. And it's again, like 18, 000 feet up, so it just gets like hammered. The clouds start to kind of envelop us a bit and we start to feel the wind at our back and we start getting hit with a little bit of snow and we're about a third of the way until we finally at least get to the pass and almost with every step the storm is getting worse and worse and worse and worse.
And finally when we're getting around to turn the corner at Denali Pass, we're having to lean into the mountain with our ice axes whenever there's gusts of wind because it's there's this weird effect when the wind comes, it kind of like scoops under you and like kind of peels you off the mountain.
So when the wind gust comes, you kind of like hammer your ice axe into the side and just like wait. And then you kind of sprint in between like wind gusts and we turn the corner and it's just, we're just getting hammered.
And we sit there and we debate and we're kind of peeking up at the summit and you can see this lenticular cloud just squatting down on the summit. And lenticular clouds are indicative of like the worst weather you're going to experience on a mountain. So if there's ever a lenticular cloud on your route, stop. Do not pass go. Turn around immediately and especially the summit ridge to Denali. The wind up there can just flick you off the ridge.
And so we get to about 18, 600 feet and we start having these very real conversations around. I think this is it. Like, I think, I think this is as high as we go. And that's a really hard realization because in getting to that point, that meant that we had climbed all the hardest parts. We did it. Ali, we were done. We just had a little jaunt, couple more thousand feet to the summit, tag it. You know, that would have been something that lives forever, but, you know, it wasn't meant to be.
And I think that that's where the experience comes in of knowing that, well, my goal wasn't to summit. My goal was to give everything I had, and the fact that we're getting turned around because of weather, and not because I couldn't do it, I feel okay about that. And that was something I had made peace with in my tent the night before was, I'm okay if we don't tap the top. I'm okay, I feel good about it. I'm gonna go back and do it again... but I feel good if we don't do it.
So we make that decision. But this is the thing is that, you know, getting to the top is great, but that means you're only halfway done. You got to get down the mountain. Right. And now there's this storm bearing down on us. So we've got to get off the mountain pretty quickly. So I'll try to distill it as much as possible.
It's chaos trying to get down the mountain. On the Audubon it's a one way road and all these other teams are still trying to get up and you can't turn around. You have to go up and go back down. And so we're like literally unclipping and walking around other teams on this slope to try to get down the mountain.
And by then we're in a total whiteout. So the only thing we can see is the feet in front of me. And I can just barely see the climber that I'm roped up with in front of me, that's maybe six arm lengths away. And we're just walking, descending in the cloud. And there was a moment where someone on our rope team fell and we had to catch and self arrest.
And so getting back just to 17 camp took like three times as long as it should have taken. It was such an ordeal. But the climb's not done. We had to pack up camp, we had to go down the ridge, we had to get back down to 14, 000 foot camp. And we basically trudged down there after this, like, incredibly long day, having not slept, having been at altitude for a while to get to 14 camp. And so it was just kind of like this totally dilapidated crew that had just gotten thrashed and worked and kind of emotionally spent pulling into camp to 14 to kind of put a bow on the end of the summit day.
So we didn't ultimately touch the top. But I feel really good that we climbed all the hard parts and we did it in style. We did it the right way.
[00:46:50] Ali: Dude, wow. What a journey. And I want to give you props for your storytelling. Cause like, I'm having trouble jotting some notes because I'm just so immersed in what you're describing. Especially, like if anybody watches the video I'll put on YouTube, like, you're talking about like leaning in with your axe when the storm's coming through, dude. And like how cold it was.
But what I will say to that, Ben, is that there's definitely a level of humility in you and your fellow climbers. Especially noting that some people were still going up, you know, they had to touch the summit.
Part of me wanted to ask like, well, did other people do it? But that's not important because I'm just so immersed in your story. And I love that you made that conscious decision. That you didn't become potentially another statistic where the ego took over. Because as I've done my research and learned from other storytellers, that's literally how people get killed. They just get infatuated with well we're this far , you know, it's so close. And I literally heard you like we did the hardest parts.
But what's so beautiful and powerful about the climax of this story is the way I filter that is You respected in nature. If there's anything to respect in my world, it's nature. Like it will literally tell you.
I was just hiking with my kiddos the other day. We're out in Vail, and even though Colorado is a lot of great weather, when clouds come in, especially when we're at higher altitudes, this is probably like 10 11, 000 feet, I'm aware. And I'm looking around and I'm also using that opportunity to teach my kids. I'm like, Hey, Sepia, who's five now, what is nature telling us? And she looks up, she's like, well, the skies are dark. I'm like, are they normally dark? She's like, no.
And I'm like, cool. So this is a time to be more aware. And then a few drops started coming through. Right.
So this is, I'm trying to like, you have this epic adventure. And I'm like giving this hiking story, but anyways, I sat in pause. I go, we have to make a decision now. We've been hiking for almost an hour. If we keep going, we risk hiking higher into a storm where it's more likely for lightning to be present and be in danger.
And so it was just a really good opportunity for me to distill the one thing I wanted them to take away from that experience was respect nature.
You did it on a much more grand level with so many other factors. Like you had invested years into this prep. You're weeks in, you're tired, but I also want to reflect I love that you shared your mental sharpness was still there. Because what I'm gathering as I'm hearing this Ben, and learning from you, is how much of a mental and emotional game it is.
Like to your point, a lot of us are probably in physical shape to climb some of the highest mountains in the world, but are we in mental and emotional shape?
Probably not.
So that's one of the biggest lessons I'm taking from this or the gifts. So thank you. Just, yeah. Thank you for your story. Thank you for sharing that.
So you hit 14k. Is there anything past that or at that point does the journey kind of unfold? Actually, no, of course there's stuff past that. I want to know how you kind of reintegrated into life.
Sure.
[00:50:08] Ben: Yeah. Yeah. I think you hit it too with like the mental aspect of it. Like something I realized early on is like the physical stuff is important, but it is actually your mental desire that makes up the most, the biggest piece of it. Like if you have a desire to do something, you will outrun people that are more physically prepared than you in every aspect of it.
And that's why the mental aspect of it, I think, was so important. And I'll say this last thing on that piece of, uh, you know, the mental sharpness. This idea of balance. Like in that moment, it was a really important test of my balance. It's really easy to say that we can be balanced or try to achieve balance at sea level when we're at our home and things are comfy.
But when I'm getting hammered by wind at 18. 6, and I have every right in my mind to be able to justify I should be able to keep going, it puts into question my values and I have to really double down on, am I going to live out the way that I talk about my values or is it going to show that they're not really rooted in something?
And I always say that, like, the way that you are able to balance things, or at least the way that you're able to attempt to achieve balance is a litmus test for the health of your ambitions. So I think that in that moment, had I been willing to take on more risk than I should have, put my, my role as a father, as a husband at risk, I think that would have shown that my ambitions were not rooted in something healthy and that I had some introspective work to do to right that when I got back down.
And so, because I felt really secure in the root of my ambitions, it made the decision very easy. Didn't make it not difficult, but it made the decision easy. It's like, I've already made this decision. I'm just having to do it now.
And so getting off the mountain, before I got the opportunity to integrate back in life, it was kind of harrowing. The storm followed us all the way down the mountain to the point where we basically went from 14, 000 feet all the way down to the airstrip without stopping.
We took breaks along the way, but due to various factors, we basically just had to pack up our stuff at 14 and go all the way, basically walking for a little more than 24 hours straight to get back to the airstrip. Only to get stuck at the airstrip for four days, waiting for the weather to clear for planes to get off.
So it was, uh, the mountain didn't want to let us go. And I think the hardest part about integrating was that not only did the mountain not want to let us go, but I feel like I left a piece of myself on the mountain. Like, it took me a while to get back to where I felt like I was normal. I've talked about it earlier where it takes like weeks to kind of figure out the meaning of what did that climb mean for me and who came down the mountain and how is that person different than the person that came up.
And more than ever, I think because of the duration and the intensity of the climb, I was stuck for months feeling like a little bit lost and spacey trying to navigate this new person that is just jumping back into dad. Jumping back into doing all the normal things of life and sending emails.
And that contrast was really challenging. I think that that really was because much like going up the mountain, your work is not done until you get off the mountain. I think when you get off the mountain, your work is not done until you've completed that introspective work of like, what did that mean for me? And who am I?
Because that's the other part about these physical pursuits is that if I believe that I need to pursue them because they're important to me, but as a family man, I also have a responsibility to bring those benefits that I gained back home. And I think that's the introspective work. That's the responsibility there is to continue doing the work until the work is done so that I can figure out what that meant for me and then bring those benefits to my family, and not just be like spacey dad forever that's just dreaming about getting back to Alaska as soon as possible.
So there was a lot of journaling, a lot of just sleepless nights, laying in my bed, thinking, and not in like at all a negative way. But almost like a, if I closed my eyes, I was right back there to figure out what did I leave there and what did I take with me and, and all that work.
And so I know it sounds like I might be dancing around a lot of like, uh, like nebulous thoughts. And I think to a degree, it's almost like we talked about balance where it's like, I don't know that I ever will fully know with certainty what that meant for me, but I think it's in the exploration of finding that meaning and finding more of that meaning that is where I find the benefits of it.
So yeah, integration was challenging, but fairly meaningful to have to go through that exercise.
[00:54:22] Ali: Man, I love that. Wow. So I love the metaphor of leaving parts of you there and the focus on introspection. The focus on giving yourself space and not just coming down like, boom. Got to get back, got to be a dad, got to do all the things I'm normally doing. But, you know, sort of sitting in the rawness of what you just experienced.
I've had many versions of that where, in fact, this Colorado retreat that I led out here with Chris Emick over the summer. Same thing, man. We were in the wilderness for three or four days. We climbed a thirteener, which isn't, you know, as high as Denali, but it was meaningful for me and the other men. And I had this 48 hour period, Ben, where like I just had to sit. And I had to be with the things.
I remember my mind wanting to do things. It was like, yo, dude. Snap out of it. Like let's go, because my family's in Florida and I had some opportunity to get caught up on some things But my body was like no thanks. We are going to sit here and we are going to force you literally to be with what just happened. And it was beautiful.
And the other thing that I heard from what you shared is like coming back to balance and an integration. I think part of you is left there, and that's just part of your journey.
You might not ever make complete sense of that. It might just be this thing that continues to live in you and through you. And then one day you might have an insight. I'm describing a way of being open and not needing closure.
Because I think that's what can kind of destroy us inside. It's like, well, what did it mean? Like, who am I now? Instead of being like, yo, that was an extraordinary experience. I left a part of me there and now that's a beautiful part of who I am today. You know?
[00:56:11] Ben: Yeah, that desire for definitive outcomes is something that's so normal in life. Like something we all need is to a degree in our life, we all require certainty and closure. And I think some of this stuff is like tangential to other important things.
Like I talk about balance being a litmus test. I think the need for definitive outcomes with physical pursuits is also a litmus test of " is my goal the right goal?" Right? Like if my goal is only to summit, then what benefits do I think I'm going to actually gain that I will then be able to bring back to integrate with my family?
And I don't know that those are the right ones, right? I don't think that it's like, well, I did some extra risky shit and that's why I was able to summit. And so how does that come back and benefit my family? How does that benefit me as a human? Other than knowing that, like, woof, got lucky on that one.
As opposed to the alternative, like my goal is to venture forth into the unknown literally and figuratively and give everything that I absolutely have in the safest way possible. So that I can explore these unique spaces on the mountain and within my own mind and I can come back and take those lessons back to my family. Like, if anything's going to be definitive, it's that I will bring something back and then I will come back and I will be able to share those.
And I think that that's like where I think I learned really early on my first climb where I got sick and had to turn around. I was like, my goals have to be different. And I think that a lot of that was releasing the need for the definitive outcomes when it came to these things. Because that's just not how life works, you know.
And I think there was a lot of people that came off climbs like this that they were like already ready to go back. And I'm like, I'm not judging any everyone's different, right? But for me, I was like, huh? I feel okay. I'm at peace. I certainly want to go back, but it's because I feel like there's more to learn to be able to finally put that last couple thousand feet together and put it into play and be more efficient and yada yada. And that's not the time right now.
[00:58:17] Ali: Dude, that is powerful. Releasing the need for a definitive outcome. Just to repeat that. That is powerful because you're so spot on, man. Like humans just get caught up with these laser focus goals.
And I read it really well the other day. How dangerous expectations can be in all facets of life, especially something like summiting Denali, like the expectation to summit.
And so releasing the need for this definitive outcome and just being with the journey.
Ben, this is an epic story. Before we wrap, I want to actually transition this a little bit into your podcast. So you run The Athlete Dad Podcast, which looks awesome. You interview some super cool humans on there.
Just tell us a little bit about that. I have to imagine it blends into everything we just discussed with this adventure.
[00:59:11] Ben: Yeah. Yeah. So I recently spun up The Athlete Dad Podcast. And the idea is that we explore this intersection that we've talked about between physical pursuits and fatherhood. Right.
I actually spun it up out of a moment of desperation around this idea of balance and was like, man, I, I'm not starting this podcast because I have all the answers. I'm starting this podcast cause I need to be able to ask questions at scale. Because boy, do I need some guidance here.
And my hypothesis was that other men must feel this too. This desire to go out and explore these physical pursuits of ours. And I specifically call them physical pursuits as opposed to sports because it can encapsulate a much broader array of ways that we can go outside of our home and challenge ourselves and push ourselves in nature.
But I just felt like there's got to be other people who are out here that feel this innate need to go do this and this is such an important piece of our life. And they've got to be probably doing the like the bringing of the home of the lessons better than I can. Or they're managing balance a lot better.
And so, yeah the idea is that we hear from incredible humans, incredible fathers who also just happened to be doing amazing feats. And what's interesting about these conversations is that, you know, I was talking with a guy named Garrett McNamara, who surfed waves that are like 80 feet tall in a place called Nazare. So the largest waves on earth.
And yet when we dive into these conversations, the thing that I really love is that being a dad is the great equalizer. So even though this guy has surfed a hundred foot wave, you know, all we really dig into and riff on is like the dad life.
And what does it mean to be an athlete that is a dad? What does it mean to model ambition with these pursuits with your kids? How are you trying to achieve that balance? How are you trying to integrate them into your passion? So we remove that distance between the pursuit of our goals and the pursuit of being a great father.
And so it's just been so many rich and meaningful conversations where like every call, I feel like it's like a therapy session for me when I'm just like, yeah. Reminded of what's important and I'm grounded and I'm just getting the opportunity to talk to this, just this incredible human being again. And I always like to say that it's like these incredible dads who just also happen to be the world's greatest, you know, fill in the blank.
And the thing that I think has been a really important reminder coming out of this show is that there's this great story of so many dads doing these amazing things and they have these young kids who have like no context for what their dad has just done and how epic it is or how like how like cool their dad is outside of their house. And their kids love them just because they're dad, right?
Or their kids are almost like annoyed at their like celebrity status of like, it's just dad. Like he's, he's just dad. And I think that has been the most important reminder of everything is that even though we feel this desire to go outside of our home and pursue amazing things, the most important thing always remains the people that are within our home.
And we have this quote that my wife put up on our house and it's like that "the most important work you will ever do is within the walls of this house." And that I think has been a healthy reminder to kind of relinquish some of that anxiety that's maybe associated with, I need to go out and do this and say, well, let me make sure that that the people that I'm leaving behind me to go do these things are the ones that I'm really here serving in these pursuits.
So yeah, long story short, the podcast has been phenomenal. I feel very privileged to talk to these amazing human beings. And we've just finished our first season and are about to start digging into the season two and make some really cool changes to the podcast. But, you can find it at theathletedad. com or on all majors podcast platforms. So.
[01:02:57] Ali: Mm. I love it, dude. Yep. It's an awesome show. One of the things that I want to reflect back that I love about your pathway into this is that it's rooted in curiosity. I see a lot of podcasts that are not rooted in curiosity. They're rooted in other agenda based things.
Like, Oh, well, I do this business in the world, so I should just do a podcast because it's going to give me leads, blah, blah, blah. Whereas you're like, Yo, I want to know how other dads are doing this. Like, I still want to adventure and I still want to be an awesome dad. So how can I learn?
You know, that's very much why I started my podcast. This show we're listening to that's around personal growth, discovery, transformation, which you highlighted in your story. And so I'm a huge fan of you and pursuing this podcast and pursuing these conversations because it's authentic. And I hear that. I feel that from you, dude. It's rooted in curiosity.
I think curiosity is not only a superpower, but it's one of the most beautiful things that can keep us grounded, like you said. When we're naturally curious, we tend to show up as we are. When we let go of that curiosity and we start to become overwhelmed by fear and other, you know, ego based emotions, then we just start doing things that don't really align with who we are.
So I love that. We'll definitely link to the show. And what I'd love to do if you have some space for it is end on a few rapid fire fun questions.
[01:04:28] Ben: Yeah, we'll love it.
[01:04:29] Ali: Yeah, sweet dude. So number one, what's your favorite food?
[01:04:35] Ben: My favorite food. I would say eggs, baby. Eggs and eggs. Here's the kicker though. Eggs with chili crisp sauce. There's nothing better on this earth than an over easy egg with chili crisp on top.
[01:04:49] Ali: Nice.
I too love eggs. In fact, I have a almost unhealthy obsession with egg burritos. I make at least three or four a week. Usually after my 11 a. m. workout , I make an egg burrito, put all types of stuff in there. So I love that answer.
Number two, designed for you, what's your next adventure?
[01:05:11] Ben: Yeah, the next adventure is really exploring my backyard here in Bend, Oregon. And I've already started to do that. We have the beautiful cascade mountain range with all these interesting, unique volcanoes.
And so I actually just climbed middle sister with a dad friend of mine. And talk about releasing definitive outcomes, we just went out there as like a reconnaissance trip, like no idea what's going to be good, you know, might be shitty, might be awesome and ended up summiting and having an amazing time.
And that really just put me in the back country. And you see all these interesting ridge lines on all these other peaks and the mind starts wondering. And so I'm actually really excited to adventure closer to home, more day trips in the cascades around Bend. And specifically too, I want to try to ski off a couple of these summits. So.
[01:05:54] Ali: Very cool, dude. Yes. You live in a beautiful place. We talked about that a few weeks ago. We had an awesome time visiting Bend. And I love that after coming off of something like Denali, you're like, there's so much to explore right in my backyard. So that is cool.
Last question for you, brother. What's one of your favorite childhood memories?
[01:06:15] Ben: You know, one of my favorite childhood memories that that has come up a lot lately is actually around this idea of like the relationship with our kids. So, you know, I think that as dad's oftentimes we feel like we have to be superheroes and design these like amazing perfect moments or like we're going to say we're going to deliver like dad wisdom that's just going to, you know, change their life.
But I think about this moment in particular where when I was a kid I grew up wrestling and that meant that we were driving, like, you know, four hours to the Central Valley in California. And that meant that on the way back it was like driving through the dark with my dad, just talking. And there's nothing out there.
And I just vividly remember sitting in my dad's truck with just the glow of the radio and the headlights on a road in front of us just driving straight for miles and just talking about everything. About life.
And I love that memory as a kid because it kind of reminds us to again that like the most important thing that you can be for your kids is there and present and engaged. And you don't have to be superhero and that they love you because your dad. And my dad did a lot of amazing stuff for us, but it was that moment, those moments that I really appreciate the most.
[01:07:23] Ali: That's real. Wow. I feel the goosebumps of that energy, man. So thank you. That's very real. Just show up. You know, it doesn't always have to be some epic gift or adventure or surprise. Like, just show up. And if you're going to show up, be present. Don't just be in the room, but be present.
And wow, that's so nostalgic. Because I had some beautiful road trips with my family. And you just kind of brought me right back there, brother. So thank you.
And this was a gift. This was an epic story. There was so much wisdom in this. I got to know you better. I'm excited for some future adventures. So I'm going to figure out how to get into your world and be like, yo, let's go do this. Let's climb that. Probably be in Bend sometime soon. Hope to see you at FRD live this year.
So thank you, brother, for being here. Thank you for sharing this. Anything left unsaid?
[01:08:16] Ben: You know, I just want to express my gratitude for you, man. I just love getting to have this conversation with you. I love what you're doing with the podcast. I love the thoughtfulness.
And, you know, you and I had talked a bit offline before we started recording. And you're like, how are you doing? And I'm like, I'm actually pretty stressed right now. But, I wanted to have this conversation 'cause I knew that talking to an amazing human like you was gonna give me energy and ground me and get me right back to where I needed to be.
And so, just wanna express my gratitude to you and, um, I'm excited to keep our own journey as friends and dads going together. So.
[01:08:48] Ali: Mm, thank you brother. I receive that. That is another gift, just shows the quality of human you are. So great words to end. And yes, I hope to see you soon.
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This episode is loaded with insights around environment, self inquiry, energy, life force power, and the innate vitality we all have within us. We also talk about Pedram’s book – FOCUS: Bringing Time, Energy and Money into Flow. We dig into the Life Garden concept and how it applies to our energy management.
Pedram also shares some history and mythology behind Bodhidharma and the Shaolin monks. We discuss how those origins shaped the Star Wars story, other hero’s journey examples, and Pedram’s mission to become a force for good. I really enjoyed this conversation!
I appreciate Pedram for his courage and stand for justice. He’s committed to truly helping people and he’s up against the “dark side.” You’ll have to listen to this episode to understand why 🙂
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"[00:00:00] Ali: Welcome back folks to The Power of SPACE. I have a longtime friend, Mr. Eric Turnnessen. Also, this is a special first repeat guest. So as I was preparing for this, I got really excited, Eric, because you were the second episode. An episode that I love, that I've listened to more than once. We cover a lot of cool things, and that was almost two years ago.
And here you are again, the first repeat guest. A lot of life has happened since then. You and I have had several conversations since then. And you're one of the few people in my world where almost every conversation we have is record worthy.
So I'm already happy. What's that?
[00:00:50] Eric: No pressure.
[00:00:51] Ali: No pressure. Yeah.
So I have to start with the intro, which I thought about not starting with because it's our second time, but I actually think it'd be interesting to see how you answer it. So who is Eric Turnnessen today?
[00:01:08] Eric: Oh, Lordy. Well, it's not as straightforward as it was the last time, I believe.
And someone asked me this recently, like, "what do you do?" That kind of question when you're meeting somebody new? And they say, Oh, what do you do? Right. And I answered in a particular way. And then after I was done answering it, I wasn't really satisfied with it. And I came up with a better answer or more accurate answer, which is that I'm listening.
Um. Because I do a lot of different things. Kind of whatever fancies my attention. You know, I do some coaching, I do some music composition, I do a lot of meditation and things in that realm, but I wouldn't necessarily define myself by any one of those things in terms of like saying, Oh, this is who I am.
At a high level, I'm endeavoring to not be so goal oriented in terms of where I think I'm going. And as a result, I have to live with a lot of patience, live with a lot of surrender, and have a lot of discernment in terms of when to take action, and do something, or when not to.
And I think that that's a generic enough overview of me to at least maybe interest some people, but it certainly doesn't say anything about who I am.
[00:02:35] Ali: Hmm. Maybe it does. Maybe it does. Because as I was listening to you, I agree with everything you've just said. And my mind quickly wanted to honor and congratulate you in ways where I'm like, yes, you do. As of late, especially, you've always spent time feeling into things. And the point you made at the end, the discernment around when to take action.
I've admired that, since I've known you, when you feel it and you know it, you go. You don't wait around. Whereas I, myself, and a lot of humans, I think we get in a lot of trouble when we feel something, we know it in our gut and we just wait. And we play with it or we let it linger on, which from my own personal journey has created all kinds of weird hassles and even issues sometimes.
Where I'm like, I knew right away. Body told me, my body quickly had that initial reaction. It's something I've been sort of sharing with my children at five and seven years old. I'm like, your body knows right away. So listen to that, be with that.
[00:03:46] Eric: Yeah. And I think that's really critical and an important skill to develop. And of course, that plays a part in what I'm doing.
And I think that waiting is also a fundamental ingredient, especially with complex situations like say the ending of a relationship, whether that's with a person or whether that's with a job or something like that. There can be multiple things happening in the body at the same time and they can contradict each other.
So in that situation, you can't just be like, okay, I'm going to go with what my body feels. Because in that situation where there's a lot of conflicting things like maybe part of me is a yes. I want to do this. And part of me is a no. And then you have to discern, okay, what's the percentage? What's the bigger part of me?
And that does take time to sit with that and let things settle. Because if in that situation, there's a knee jerk decision, then it's probably going to be reactive as opposed to responsive. And that will end up probably having regrets as a result.
[00:04:56] Ali: I'm with you. It reminds me of this model I took from conscious leadership, which is the whole body, yes.
Some people call it the hell yes, the full body yes. The idea is that when you have those, you know, it's certain. And there's a lot more decisions where we get a ratio like you described, where like, there's a chunk of me that's a yes, there's a chunk of me that's no. And so going back to what you shared, I think that's where the awareness comes in.
The reflection, like, is this fear speaking? Is this something else? And being with that ... I like what you said, because it's not always that easy. I love to be like, Hey, I only say yes, if it's a whole body yes. But then it'd be a very binary lifestyle. I still honor the whole body, yes, but I can't make every single decision like that.
[00:05:48] Eric: Yeah, and, and also I think, from my experience, I've learned that especially if it's a decision that's like maybe a departure from a path that I was on.
There's usually a part of my body that feels uncertain about it. It's kind of like if you're the monkey swinging in the trees. And you're going from one branch to another. Like if you have a branch in hand before you let go of the other one, there's some comfort there. But if you have a leap of faith where you let go one branch, but it's kind of like, you have to travel through some air to get to the next branch...
Yeah, there's a full body. There's a partly a full body. Yes. Like, Oh, I'm going for that branch. But then also there's like, "Oh shit," you know, am I going to make it kind of feeling, which I think is something to pay attention to because that very sensation can be the thing that people micro focus on and then choose that to be an obstacle as to not take that step.
Because he'll get the yes. But then, like, the fears will crop up, and the unknowns, and then the mind will fixate on that, and then before you know it, the power of attention magnifies those fears. And so now you've lost the awareness of that yes that was originally there, because you've chosen to focus on this smaller part, which then, because of your attention, ends up being magnified.
And then you just don't do it.
[00:07:16] Ali: Yes. Well said. I was smiling as you started talking about the monkeys swinging because I was just waiting for how fast we'd get to one of your awesome metaphors. You have the best metaphors. You always combine nature with them and they're clear, they're simple, like the monkey swinging from the tree.
Like that's easy to comprehend.
[00:07:36] Eric: Monkeys are great.
[00:07:37] Ali: So that is a beautiful path into something I want to talk to you about where I have high curiosity, because I know your story, and it's around the topic of transition. So, you are... focusing on your music. Now you're focusing on coaching, like you said.
But this came about from you know, kind of opening up some space recently in having an exit from the business where you and I met a decade ago. Now that we're here, what comes up for you in reflecting on that transition?
[00:08:12] Eric: So, it was a transition. That's what I can say about it. There are certain parts that are too far in the future for me to, like, kind of feel in my body anymore and, like, live it or retell it. But kind of being where I am now, it's clear that it was the right decision for me. And also the other branch hasn't shown up.
Right. So it was very clear to me that this wasn't just a decision about letting go of a company or moving away from a job. It was more about a closing of a chapter of life and in closing that chapter at the simultaneous, we was an invitation and a preparation for whatever the next chapter is.
And this goes back to what I said about me in the beginning about the listening. I don't know what that next chapter is. I have some senses about it, but, it's still not clear. What's happened though is like puzzle pieces show up. Like, different pieces seem to appear.
Actually, before I get into that, I'll reflect that it reminds me of... how MemberMouse started in the first place. Like I was working at a consulting job and I was looking around me at people who have been doing it for 25 years and we're super successful. And I was like, that's not a goal that I want to spend 25 years.
Like, even if I get there, that wouldn't be success for me. So I left my job, but I didn't have any plan for what. I just knew I couldn't do that. And ultimately like two years later, MemberMouse kind of emerged from the mists, you know. Like there was no plan for that. It was really a lot of happenstance that made MemberMouse come about. And then MemberMouse became clear. And then I made that 14 year journey.
So it feels very analogous to that. I can use and reflect on how that felt for me then to help guide me through this experience. One thing I'm very aware of is like if the puzzle of the consulting job was like a one dimensional world, leaving that was basically preparing me for a two dimensional world.
And so it's not just a leaving of something. It's an opening up to new perspective of seeing things. So as puzzle pieces showed up in that transition, I would be perceiving them with the old mindset of one dimensional and trying to fit it together. But it wasn't until there was some like, aha moments, realizations that showed me, oh, actually, they go together like this in a two dimensional way.
So, the same is happening now. Puzzle pieces are showing up, 2D puzzle pieces are showing up now. But I know from experiences that they're not going to make a 2D puzzle, there's going to be a three dimensional puzzle that comes out of this. So it's going to be a completely different way of being that I can't perceive right now and I think that's where the trust and surrender comes in.
Because if the fear of not knowing took hold, and I can sense myself doing this on a nearly weekly basis, like, "Oh, let me find the thing that I'm used to and comfortable like, what do I need to do?" And it's always looking for the thing that I know, and I did before and I was comfortable with.
But, you know, after acknowledging that is going on with me and sitting with it and letting it pass, it all comes back to waiting to see what's going to come my way. And really just like, being playful with the world in a sense. Like I have enough experience to know that even in MemberMouse, so much of the success depended on seemingly random events happening. Like a significant person coming in with an opportunity or a particular client, you know, that led to more things.
Like there are things that are completely out of my control. I know enough and have enough experience with that to be patient and wait. Because on the MemberMouse journey, I wasn't patient. I was working, I was firing all six cylinders. Where in retrospect, I realized I really only need to be running on two because it's not all about effort.
So yeah, I mean, this time is like a new classroom. It's like showing up. I've learned all these skills and the teacher's like, okay, well, we're going to test that and see what you've learned. So I do feel like I'm being tested and, you know, a lot of that shows up.
The tests happen in an internal way in terms of thoughts, emotions, in that realm. And so that's also why I spend a lot of time and a big amount of my focus on meditation and other kind of introspective practices to show up to that battlefield for lack of a better word.
[00:13:03] Ali: Wow, that's interesting.
There's so much that's interesting in what you said. The first is that like I expected even more awesome metaphors came in. So we started with the monkey swinging on trees. Then you brought this cool puzzle, and I was there with you, I was seeing you, like, put the puzzle together, and then advancing to the next chapter, the next puzzle.
And then you brought in the classroom, right? Which is its own metaphor, it's beautiful. Oh, man. And then at the end, you drop the battlefield. We'll see if that goes anywhere.
But, what I think's really cool, I want to reflect back to you, Eric, is that, in some ways, I feel like, watching your transition from my lens and being your friend and supporting you, it was just like the monkey. You saw the branch, you didn't really hesitate, which might go against your pattern, because you explained how one of your deeper patterns that got you into MemberMouse was kind of blindly going. But I think there's a part of you that perhaps saw the branch, and you swung to it, and you went, because you're like, this is the new branch that I'm going to, I want to see what it opens up.
It would have been really easy for you to stay, and not swing there, which I've done, in my journey. And so I know what that feels like and what you shared about like staying from fear is so real. So I love that part. I also think that the Eric I know today, especially compared with Eric five years ago or ten years ago when I first met you, is very patient, is very still.
And these are two moves that I think are so impressive. I'm laughing because there's, these are like the two things I'm trying to teach my kids, even though I try not to teach them a whole lot. I'm like, hey guys, sometimes you just need to be patient. We just need to be still and surrender.
Because the point I want to make there is that I found that life becomes so much more beautiful for me when I let go and let things happen instead of trying to be the composer and control things and architect them and do all this stuff for this crystal clear future projections, instead of being just kind of sitting back and saying, well, let's just let the music play.
These are some random thoughts I have. It also transitions into what I want to talk to you about, which is music, which is some of the stuff.
[00:15:23] Eric: Before you do that, can I comment on the branch thing, please? I think that that's what intuition is. And maybe like the full body, yes, or whatever we want to call it. It's basically something non logical, non mental that is indicating to us that there's something.
So there is part of us that can see the next thing, but it's not a part that is mental or intellectual or logical, right? So that's where the rub comes in. Can you be somebody who can trust in things other than what's seen and known?
Um, and that is, I think, a really important practice to do to be human. Like it's important to grant the mind its realm and what it's good at and the things that it's good at. But ultimately, it's something that requires a lot to function. It requires a lot of information and data gathered over time from past sources from other people. Maybe indirect or direct. It all depends.
But there are other ways of navigation that don't require information and data. And they are equally, if not more important than the mental ones, depending on what one's trying to cultivate, of course. But I'll just say for me, more and more, the non mental logical areas are much more important than mental.
[00:16:54] Ali: I'm really glad you came back to that because I'm going to double down and share that something that happened in my world a little over a year ago was an experience that came through a means of breathwork, very intentional, deep breathwork. And... The exercise showed me something that I'm literally going to do next week in terms of leading a retreat, being in nature. It showed me a glimpse. It didn't even show me the whole picture.
But the reason that I think it's so profound and it connects right back to what you just shared is that, I could have only quote unquote, "seen that" by feeling it. In other words, I didn't know how to intellectualize that. It wasn't something I could mentally navigate to, to use your words.
But I saw this brief picture. And at the time, this is well over a year ago, almost two years ago. I didn't even know what it really meant. I just knew to your point, it was something calling me. So that's why I say I could quote unquote, "see it." And it's amazing because that would have never happened if I didn't kind of surrender to the fear, let go of some things.
So I 100 percent agree with that, and what I'm going to filter on that note is that there's only so much we can mentally navigate that we can intellectualize, especially as it relates to what this feels like our calling or what we're getting pulled to the energy that wants to come through us.
And like you said, I couldn't think my way through it. I had to feel it to see it, which sounds kind of crazy. And here we are, next week, I'm going to step into this thing that I felt back then.
[00:18:43] Eric: Well, there's actually a simple exercise that can help the mind actually see how this isn't so crazy. And it shows the limitation of perception.
Basically, like, if you imagine a circle of people sitting around a tree and you go around the circle and each one describes what they're seeing. Everybody's gonna have something slightly different that from their perspective that they're seeing about that tree, but they're all 100% correct. They, it's their truth, right?
It's their truth, but it's also not just their truth. It's everybody's truth, mm-hmm. But the people on the opposite side can't see with their physical eyes what the person on the opposite side is seeing. So, just like with a physical object, when we take it into a more etheric world of ideas and goals and whatever, it's the same thing. Like, whatever we think that we perceive is only part of it.
And so it's very fallible to believe that we know, even if it feels like very strongly that we can see something. It's always, I think, healthy to allow for a certain amount of like, okay, "I don't have the full picture, I don't know." And it keeps one's mind open. Because something else I've learned from taking journeys of different kinds is sometimes the motivation that gets us up out of the chair to walk out the door that's palatable to mind, like maybe a trip like, okay, my desire tells me I want to go to Santa Fe.
Okay, so I get up. I drive. I'm heading out to Santa Fe. But then Something happens, like some UFO flies across the road and is like, "Oh, crap, like there's a UFO going that way." Like that seems intriguing and it's calling me that direction. Now, the stubborn mind will be like, "Well, I was going to Santa Fe and that was the original plan," right? And we'll ignore the thing that just happened.
But the open mind will be like, "Oh, well that must be why I'm here, right?" And I think that happens a lot where what we're given to get us into motion isn't necessarily always going to be the end result.
[00:21:00] Ali: I like that. Yeah, that's real.
Okay. Uh, something I want to talk to you about is music. Music is in focus for you now. I love seeing some of the stuff that you share. I believe you just did a contest of sorts. Tell me about that. What's going on with music in your life?
[00:21:24] Eric: So I've been recording with orchestras for the past few years, which is essentially like the culmination of a lifelong dream. Like I started composing when I was 14 and very early on I had these visions and desires to have my stuff recorded with an orchestra. Never could see how it would happen, and pretty much gave up hope on it happening at at different times.
But yeah, three years ago certain things were shown to me that I took action on and ultimately ended up recording once, thought that would be the end of it, did it again, figured that would be the end, and then I did it again this year.
And also this year I did the contest because, and I'm going to say because and there's going to be a reason, but the reason isn't the only reason why it happened. Again, it was a listening thing. And there was there was a lot of... like an iceberg, there was a lot of stuff under the water that was happening. But I can tell you about what's above the water, which is the quote unquote "reason."
And the reason is that, I know how powerful it was for me to have that experience and I wanted to pass it along to other people who might have been in my same situation. Composers who had never had their stuff recorded by orchestra before.
And so the contest was basically to put out to everybody, no entrance fee, to all ages from 12 to 70, any level of experience, submit a piece of music for a particular ensemble, orchestral ensemble, and then I would choose a winner. And that winner I would pay for that to get recorded by the orchestra.
And yeah, it was just a really amazing experience on a number of levels to kind of be the one shepherding somebody else through the process, but also getting to meet people, the community of musicians and seeing how large the community was and engaged. And yeah, there was a lot of interest in that particular endeavor.
And It's probably one of the most successful campaigns of sorts that I've done, even including anything for MemberMouse in terms of level of engagement and excitement, you know? So to me, I take that as a sign that it was aligned. Like I don't take ownership of that, but I look at it as like, okay, like I took these actions and I was definitely meant to do this just based on how it felt as a result of going through doing it and seeing what came out of it.
And, um, I also recorded three more of my pieces with a 60 piece orchestra. I'm currently in post production for all of that stuff right now, like editing a lot of behind the scenes footage together to release more videos on my YouTube channel.
But again, like it's interesting with the music stuff, like I go through waves, like the beginning of the year, I was preparing for preparing all the music. There's a lot of pre production that goes into this to get 60 people all to do the same thing. At the same time, within a very short period of time with zero to minimal error because it's so expensive. So there's a lot of prep that happens.
And so my level of engagement and everything was really involved from the beginning of the year all the way up to the recording session, which was in May. And then the May experience of having it all come to this culmination point was a peak experience.
And then after that, it's almost like, ah I never freaking want to listen to that music again. Why did I even do that? And it's interesting because this happened last time, and it's kind of like this cycle where you have these peaks and valleys that come, even though I know I love it so much. You know, when you've listened to something like literally thousands of times and you have to do it with a critical ear and, you know, it's work.
So, at the end of it, I still feel like I'm just coming out of that kind of aftermath or postpartum feeling of having gone through the whole creative effort. And so, again, I'm in the situation where like, "okay, well, maybe that's all that was meant to happen with music." And if I never do it again, I'll be fine.
But I'm still listening, and if I get the message to do it again, then I'll do it again. But there's no plan.
[00:25:40] Ali: Yeah, that's cool.
I remember the first time you did it and when I tuned in on YouTube LIVE when you were sharing it publicly for the first time. One, the piece is beautiful. So you have a real gift. But more importantly, I was like, "Oh, shit. I see Eric." Like, I see him, even though I couldn't physically see you, right. But I was watching.
And that's what was so extraordinary about it. There was the music and then there was this visual piece that you kind of put together. And even though I saw you as a buddy for years, and we worked together, we were in a very technical, uh, professional world until we started having these conversations.
And we're like, Oh, so we could talk about more than just coding and memberships. And then when I watched that, I was like, "Oh my goodness, this is his art." Not that I don't believe it's your only art by any means, but I was like, this is definitely part of your art. And as a creator, I was blown away. I was proud as your friend. I had all these sensations, even though I was watching it digitally.
I can only imagine if I was sitting next to you in like a live orchestra, the energy that would happen with that, which would be awesome to do at some point if that presents itself. But I really admired that you've swung to that branch because that's a big branch. It's a scary branch.
And then now you're giving the gift to someone else. When are they expected to start their process?
[00:27:14] Eric: Well, we already did it.
[00:27:15] Ali: Oh, it's done. Wow.
[00:27:16] Eric: Well, we recorded it. And you know, all these videos are on YouTube, but I still have yet to produce like the final, final video that basically culminates the whole thing.
Cause it's still in post production, the mixing and mastering of the piece. And then I have to take that and edit it to the video footage and produce, you know, the YouTube content. But all the pieces are almost done. The recording already happened. So the winner, you know, had a great life changing experience and super thrilled about it.
So yeah, it's just waiting for everything to get in front of me, all the pieces, and then for me to have the motivation to actually like produce that content. Which you know, I definitely identify with as a creative and producing things is definitely different than sharing them.
Right. You know, I get a lot of inspiration for production and creation, but then when it comes to like putting it out in the world, like I definitely dragged my feet a lot on that front. And I'll do better this year than I've done in the past year, but last year when I released, it took me like a year to release the stuff that I recorded. And the first year was even different.
Because it's about being seen at that point, you know, it's like, okay, I produced it and it was great for my experience, but now like putting it out in the world is, um, a different experience...
[00:28:37] Ali: Okay, so this is important.
Do you think the, let's just call it the resistance to share comes from a relationship with an identity?
[00:28:51] Eric: I don't think so.
[00:28:55] Ali: So then tell me more when you say it's about being seen.
[00:29:01] Eric: Oh, I think coming back to the body, right? There's just like different levels of comfort that we all have. And so, meeting with resistance simply is identifying that there is something within us that doesn't feel safe doing that. And maybe that can be because of some past experience where it was done and there wasn't a good experience and there wasn't proper healing from that. So it's basically a trauma response.
Like I know I've done a lot of performing in my life. I was in a boy choir in middle school and I sang in college and I know for me, I've always kind of had stage fright. I'm fine with groups. Like I sing in groups fine but anytime I had a solo, or on the spot like with the attention on me like that felt really intense and I couldn't get my breath and often I couldn't do the solo.
Sometimes I've done it but it's always like a nerve wracking experience that, you know, similar to like public speaking, like I've had to do some live things for MemberMouse sometimes and it always like filled me with dread.
So I think it's the same thing. It's like, basically fear of rejection, I think is part of it. And, uh, it's a vulnerable experience. So ultimately to knowingly go into a vulnerable experience takes courage.
And so through whatever work that I've done through spiritual practices and other modalities, and through just doing things like my own podcast and MemberMouse. Basically going from the behind the scenes in the dark corner software engineer to the person at the end of my time with MemberMouse, where I was more just doing all the public things, you know, YouTube videos, live things. Just by doing there was comfort, you know, gained from that.
So I think all these experiences build on top of each other and in preparation for, things like this. Because music, like you said, is like art, there's not much filter between that and me as a person, like that is an expression of me.
Whereas, like software, you know, it is an expression, but there's a little bit more of a mental barrier.
[00:31:17] Ali: It's not as subjective as art.
[00:31:20] Eric: Yeah. So, yeah. So releasing music is definitely more, uh, a different exercise.
[00:31:29] Ali: So it's very interesting that you said that. And the reason that I quickly poked at the identity, which as you answered that it doesn't feel like that had much to do with this. Where your answer was, was very felt very authentic to just kind of the fear as it relates to bringing your art to the world. And clearly art that you care about. So when you start using the words vulnerable, and as I know, you know, your path, that makes so much sense to me.
And why this is so interesting is that just the other day, like literally earlier this week, I was having a conversation with Gabrielle about the act of promotion, of sharing things, especially in social media, or just in public, like just in passing and communication with people, and specifically as it relates to SPACE.
So the podcast, the coaching, the retreats, the work that lights me up that I am passionate about right now. And it's funny, Eric, I was telling her, I was like, " I feel so much resistance," which is why I shared that word with you. Like, I don't want to post this on social media. I don't want to do marketing.
I was I complaining like a five year old, right. Just getting out of my body. Like, I don't want to do this. And she looked at me and smiled. And she's like, "it sure is easy for you to share your pictures when you're traveling with your family. It sure is easy for you to share a picture of a little zucchini that comes out of the garden you've created."
And she started giving me this reflection back that, "Oh, I do like to be seen" to your point, especially in some of those ways where it's artistic. But for me, there is a little bit of this fear, this resistance in mapping the work I'm doing, and broadcasting that.
And so it's this really weird mind game that I got some clarity on just this week and being like, wow, I sure am good at marketing the things that are fun and authentic. But when it comes to more serious things that relate to the work I'm doing in the world, now I get more resistant in marketing myself, you know.
[00:33:43] Eric: That makes a lot of sense. And I'm sure everybody can relate. To that I can relate to that.
But I think it reminds me of this quote from shadow work. That's like your greatest gift lies next to your greatest shadow, something like that. Right. And it's a hero's journey, essentially, right? So when we've committed to doing the hero's journey, which is basically to do some work that does create resistance and does take effort and does take soul searching.
Then, yeah, the piece of like putting that out in the world and being seen to be doing that is also another component of that journey. And I think for me, the message is, not that to share myself to be seen is about me continuing to write music and getting large orchestras to perform it. Because in a way even that is kind of like a delaying tactic because there's so much production involved, you know, right?
And it's like, it's not as immediate. You know, so this is something that just happened actually two days ago. I was attending a Kirtan event here in Asheville. Kirtan is essentially just call and response chanting of sacred mantras.
It's a musical experience, but it's it's a lot about energy and creating a space, and being together in community singing. And I have had the experience of attending some kirtans here in Nashville that they don't go particularly the way that I would like them to. Where I'm like, I have these feelings of like, "oh, that's, that's not how it should be done" or "that didn't work." Like you had the energy and then you dropped it. You need to keep the energy going.
And so, like, after having those complaints internally, I approached the person afterwards to ask, " would there be an appetite to do more of these? Because I'd be willing to lead one." You know, and he said, yes, and there's something emotion that may lead to me doing these here in Nashville on my own.
And so it's like. Oh, great. Well, now there'll be some Kirtans that I appreciate. "I'm like, oh, crap. Like, I might have to, like, lead Kirtans now." Which is a very much more immediate way of being seen and sharing. Yes. Right.
And so it definitely feels in line with the kind of work that I'm showing up to do. And it's something I'm excited about. And it's something that combines the work with tea that I did, like holding space and doing building energy arcs with groups of people and meditation.
So it brings together a lot of pieces, you know, the experience of doing music and sharing that, but it's getting closer and closer and there's less things to hide behind as I move forward in the journey. So, that's something else that might happen soon.
[00:36:39] Ali: That's cool. That's courageous.
Okay. It's perfect for the last topic that I've been very intentional to get people's perspective on the word transformation. Particularly self transformation. And I don't think we talked about this much in our first episode.
So, what does that mean to you right now? Like if you were to identify with some personal transformation that's taken place recently or even transformation you've experienced through others, like what comes to mind?
[00:37:22] Eric: I think seeking transformation is dangerous. Because it goes back to my kind of like puzzle metaphor hmm.
If you're in the 2D world, you're going to plan your transformation according to what you know, which is 2D. And so you'll orient to whether you're going the right way or not mentally based on if things look according to the map that you see in your head. But transformation, like if you're truly transformed, then what you are now is different than what you were before, and therefore there is no relationship in a way between the two.
Something has transformed. Therefore, whatever is transformed can't relate to what it was before. It's different. It's a new world. Kind of like the caterpillar and a butterfly. Like a caterpillar and a butterfly meeting won't know that they were the same thing necessarily. I don't know what they think, but metaphorically speaking, they don't know.
And that's to me is true transformation. And actually that's a good metaphor because the caterpillar goes into transformation and they completely dissolve, essentially die, get liquefied into like this death liquid, and then are reborn as a butterfly. So if you want true transformation, you have to be willing to die.
So if you're planning what that's going to look like, you're creating safety for yourself, right? You're basically saying, "Oh, I'm just going to do this a little bit." Um, but to me, if transformation is a process of letting go and trusting, like watering a seed. Well, the way that transformation is revealed is when nature takes its course and ultimately it's a flower or something else you see at the end, but you don't know at the beginning. You commit to the process.
So I think that that's complete.
[00:39:18] Ali: Wow. That's so fascinating because right here, right now, you've given me a healthy reason to challenge using that word as something that people would want. Meaning I have it on the SPACE website. And I never even thought about that, Eric.
So first, thank you for that gift. As you said that I wasn't resistant to it. I was very open. I was like, "Oh dang, there's some truth in that for me." Like seeking it is dangerous because you just don't know. Whereas I totally agree, it's something that has to be realized. It has to be felt. It has to be almost surrendered to, to tie back into other themes we've talked about today.
Whereas if you go into it being like, well, "I'm going to transform. I know I am." Then that defeats the whole point.
[00:40:09] Eric: And there's a certain component of grace involved.
[00:40:11] Ali: Ah, yes.
[00:40:12] Eric: Because if it's completely egotistical, the ego can only operate from what it knows, which is essentially stale because it's all based on past memory. So it's limiting. It's self limiting to operate solely from the ego, literally.
[00:40:35] Ali: Totally. Yeah, that feels complete.
[00:40:38] Eric: But, you know, words... With regards to changing a website or whatever. I mean, that's always the, the kind of like crappy part. Like the words that we use, isn't just about what we're trying to communicate, but the way that our audience speaks. So it's like, that's why before we started recording, I gave you the disclaimer of like, "I'm just going to have a conversation with you. And if you don't want to use it, or if it doesn't fit, like don't use it, but I'm not going to try to speak to an audience."
Because as soon as that happens, there's a filtering process going on like, yep. And that has to happen in kind of like a sales page sense or like a presentation sense, so that you're not so beyond...
Like you have to create a transformational bridge through your communication. You can't just be on the other side of the bridge.
[00:41:26] Ali: That's a good point.
[00:41:26] Eric: Expect people to, you know, to meet you there. They're not there yet. That's the whole point of you trying to offer them a service or something.
[00:41:34] Ali: A hundred percent.
[00:41:35] Eric: Yeah. So I wouldn't go tear the website down necessarily.
[00:41:42] Ali: Change everything! Yeah. That's so real though, because it is, it's like, I think there's people in the world, and I'm in this bucket where I've reached a place where I don't really want to play a whole lot of games. I just want to speak my truth and be in relation with people that give me energy or that I have a connection to that I care about.
And then honestly follow things that peek my curiosity. That challenge me in healthy ways. And there's a lot of authenticity wrapped up in knowing that doing things like website copy and marketing doesn't always feel easy because I'm like, well, I just want to say this, but to your point, I'm like, that's not going to land with anyone. Cause it's almost like a different language to them.
And I'm like, who is this dude? What the hell is he talking about? So there's this whole filtering, deciphering, almost wordsmithing for sure, to say, this is what I'm trying to explain at a low level. It might land with you, hopefully, and then at some point, I love that you said there's this bridge, it's the beautiful path, the process, the journey, to getting to what I want to share with you.
[00:42:53] Eric: Right.
[00:42:53] Ali: Because yeah, if I just said what I initially thought.
[00:42:56] Eric: But, to contradict the thing that I just said, um.
[00:43:02] Ali: It's like, why do we do that?
[00:43:03] Eric: Well, I think that it depends on what your intention is. Like if your intention is you want to be a part of the majority of the online world that's kind of playing by a certain rule set, then what I just said makes complete sense, right?
But if you're clear in your intention, like you just stated, " this is what I want, and these are the people I want to work with," then say whatever comes to your heart. Because ultimately, words aren't the thing. Like energy transformation, transmission is what is going to attract people to you.
And if you're trying to do the mass market thing, then yeah, what I said makes a lot of sense. But if you're going for a specific audience, then you being intentional and clear on who you are and who you want to work with. Use whatever language feels comfortable to you because you're being true to yourself.
And basically attracting your audience is about clarifying your relationship with yourself. It's not about vice versa. Like, let me cast a wide net and see how many fish I can catch or trick to come into the net. That's traditional marketing.
But the other side is like, if we can be clear about who we are and be willing to transform our things as we transform. Like the copy that I wrote two weeks ago may not feel right anymore because something has transformed, something has changed. So that needs to be updated.
You know, and I think over time if you're doing that, people see this kind of trail that you've left of how you've transformed and that becomes in and of itself a selling point.
[00:44:43] Ali: That's it. Right. That's it. Oh, that's so good.
That's so good. So yes, then there will probably be no website changes from, let's see.
Eric, this has been a treat as usual. I have a few fun questions though, before we wrap, is that cool?
[00:45:02] Eric: Okay. Yeah.
[00:45:03] Ali: The first one, which I don't think I've ever asked you in 10 plus years of friendship. What's your favorite food?
[00:45:10] Eric: Well, the one that came into mind was pizza, but I actually, yeah. Well, I'll just say that, pizza is my favorite.
[00:45:18] Ali: What would be on the pizza?
[00:45:21] Eric: Um, it's just margarita. My thing is like, minimalistic because that way you can know if you've had the best. If there's too many things going on, there's distraction and you don't know that this one is better than the last one.
And my relationship with pizza now is such that like I'm gluten free, dairy free now. So, I don't eat pizza the way it used to. But basically the pizza that I had at Ken's Artisan Pizza in Portland has the current ranking of the top pizza I've ever had.
And to me, like, I'm willing to eat like a gluten dairy pizza again. But the only way I would do that if it's as good or better than that pizza that I've experienced.
[00:46:01] Ali: Now that is an answer, a pizza answer. Yeah. I love that. I did not expect to say pizza. All right.
Number two, who is a dead person you'd like to meet in person?
[00:46:13] Eric: Paramahansa yogananda.
[00:46:20] Ali: Oh, okay. Do you know what you would ask them?
[00:46:27] Eric: I wouldn't ask anything.
[00:46:29] Ali: That might just be...
[00:46:33] Eric: Just being in the presence would be significant enough.
[00:46:36] Ali: That's what I was just gonna say. I was gonna say it might be enough to just be with them Hmm. Yeah, that's a cool answer
Okay, brother, last question. What's one of your favorite childhood memories?
[00:46:48] Eric: Climbing trees. There was this really nice white pine in my yard. And by the time I was like three years old, I was climbing trees. Wow! Yeah. This white pine, it was like really tall and at the top, the branches... worked themselves such that it wasn't like just one single trunk going on.
It kind of like was like a seat. Like if you hold your palm out and your fingers up, it was kind of like that. So I could climb all the way to the top and just sit there. And like, look out.
[00:47:22] Ali: It's very nostalgic for me because that's an activity I did. Not quite at three, but we were up in trees by age five or six. And just remember how scared our parents would get, and my buddy's parents. Cause we'd go up there just like monkeys. We'd swing from the trees. We'd climb just fearless.
And now I'd love to get in a tree, but it's interesting. I don't see a whole lot of kids in trees when I look out in the neighborhood.
[00:47:50] Eric: Well. Yeah, they're not outside as much as we were.
[00:47:57] Ali: Eric, this was beautiful, man. Thank you. I'm honored to have you as the first repeat guest. This is going to be a beautiful episode to share.
[00:48:07] Eric: Yeah, I'm really happy with how the conversation turned out. So I appreciate you holding the space.
[00:48:13] Ali: Thanks, brother.
And I hope to see you in Asheville, in the flesh sometime soon.
[00:48:18] Eric: Yeah, that'd be great.
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He’s on a life mission to help people find oneness.
This episode blends some awesome thoughts around chaos, faith, control vs surrender, and Les’s unique concepts of fusion. He shares ideas around the space we create, occupy and hold for ourselves, with powerful perspective on realizing self love and transformation.
Les coaches people through his “MESS to Mastery” framework, which covers the mental, emotional, and spiritual state. He’s helping people find greater meaning and purpose in their lives.
I appreciate Les for the love and curiosity he’s shining into world. He has a huge heart and is serving the world in a beautiful way.
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["title"]=> string(66) "The Surrender Experiment: My Journey into Life's Perfection (book)" ["url"]=> string(72) "https://www.amazon.com/The-Surrender-Experiment-audiobook/dp/B00YOJ9RV6/" } [2]=> object(stdClass)#2577 (2) { ["title"]=> string(64) "The Wisdom of Insecurity: A Message for an Age of Anxiety (book)" ["url"]=> string(75) "https://www.amazon.com/Wisdom-Insecurity-Message-Age-Anxiety/dp/B0C3WM9T1G/" } } ["episode_insights"]=> bool(false) ["episode_quotes"]=> bool(false) ["episode_transcript"]=> string(43051) "[00:00:00] Ali: Welcome back, folks. I have a special friend, a good buddy, met through Front Row Dads. He's also had the pleasure of hanging out with my family in my house. We've had some amazing quality time together, Mr. Les McDaniel. And outside of that, before I let you introduce yourself, I always like to give a short plug and you are one of the friendliest, most present friends that I have in my life and I've also had in my house.
And so I appreciate how when we're together, as we were just laughing before hitting record, so sometimes we're so together and so in it that we get lost in these amazing covos of philosophy, spirituality, growth, everything, transformation, all this stuff that SPACE is essentially about. So I am very grateful to have you here, brother. How would you like to introduce yourself?
[00:00:52] Les: The, truth about me is that I love people, like you said. I just care so deeply. And my passion and my heart is really to help people find that love within themselves at the core. And I want that to be something that inspires them to live it out in the way of all the great gurus of the past, who really understood this idea of compassion and justice.
And this is a piece that's been missing. And so that's where I try to reside. And so the name of my company is Epic Fusion Life and Leadership Labs. And it's all about bringing number one, that first half of life story that we've been raised with that worldview and helping them move the story that they tell right now into the story they want to tell themselves. So there's this idea of their old self becoming their highest self.
And then the other piece of it is when you and I come together, our stories collide. And when they come together and they fuse together, it creates an even greater energetic impact in our world. And I want that piece of it to be the thing that we start to learn with, with each other and teach because discernment at its core is my heart.
And I think it's why we missed the boat on a lot of the things I've already just mentioned. So there you go. That's me. And I'm a father. Oh my goodness. Yeah. Empty nester this year, which is great. My wife is amazing. Her name's Heatherly. We've been married for 27 years this June.
I got four adult children plus a son in law who is just as adorable as ever. And that he probably would not go with the idea of being adorable, but we're going to go with it. We're going to go. He's a, he's a firefighter. He's a man's man, you know, but that's me, man.
Love being in Front Row Dads. I love being involved in your life and that's who I am. I hate those questions, you know, cause who I am, it's really about who we are and I just want to align with what my mission here is. And no matter how many times I do it, I can't do it justice because I'm just a dude, I'm a dude who loves people.
[00:02:43] Ali: You are indeed. You have a huge heart. And as you describe yourself, I realized that asking that question is interesting because some people it, immediately goes to identity for a lot of us, but you brought energy into the conversation which is beautiful.
And as you were sort of representing where your energy is now and in all the different identities or roles that you play, it's not an easy question to answer. The word of many that you chose that stuck out and that's why it's awesome, just lands with the work you're doing in the world is fusion. So we haven't had much talk about that on this podcast, and I think it's a powerful word. I think that it starts to blend a lot of things. So let's start there. Why fusion? What does that word really mean to you?
[00:03:30] Les: Well, my spiritual tradition is, Christianity. And so, at its core, there's the passage in Matthew 18, _"Where two or three are gathered in my name. There I am also."_ And, unfortunately, so many times, traditions have a tendency to hijack the greatest gifts that we've been given throughout history.
And the very basis of Hinduism and Buddhism is this whole concept of oneness. And living in the West, with our individual natures and such, we are chasing after this dream where we're always chasing after something. And, and so oftentimes it's really about propping up this ego, this, not the ego. I want to go with this body, the material factor. Yeah. And, and it's primarily because we don't understand how the, the two dark bookends that we were born between, you know, how did we get into this world? And how will we leave this world? And yet, when I think about my own life and I think about all the people that their stories fused with mine, meaning they impacted it, some for the good, some for the bad.
I don't even like putting judgments on it, but that's what it feels like, you know. And so my worldview has been shaped by a fusion of stories. And I want to bring in more of that communal aspect, the collaborative nature of a shared story that we all have. I breathe the same air you breathe, granted, yours is a little higher altitude, but, uh, but, that to me is the essence of our story is where is it that we are completely dependent upon something other than myself.
And it's all the most important things, all of them, breathing, heartbeat, brain function. My physical reality is drastically impacted by the things that are in our environment. So when we can start to have this conversation around, what does it mean to be whole, one with one another?
Because of the fact that we are all dependent on something bigger than us. It allows us to see ourselves in a smaller way that then allows us to be less anxious, less, you know, crazy minded about outcomes. Oh no, what happens if I don't have food on the table? And yet we live in the richest nation on the earth and very few, even our homeless population is richer than rich in that regard, right?
And so, there are some natural tendencies that we already do in a fusionary sort of way. We're always telling these stories, but we're not always listening to other people's stories. And so my goal is to really share my story in such a way that it affords others the opportunity to feel safe enough. To reveal some of the hardest, darkest truths, because when you understand your mess, that mental, emotional, and spiritual state that you are carrying with you, everywhere you go, how it was formed in you, now you have a spot, your dot on the map. Here's where I am.
And then you're able to go, but that's where I want to go. So many of us are trying to go somewhere without knowing where we are. And so the only way to do that is to really understand how the stories have shaped us. And that's the fusion aspect of this, the storytelling. And we are the heroes of our story.
There's a sense of shame that we all have been raised with. Our parents used to do, my parents did anyways, you know, hey, you represent the McDaniel family, right? So there's like a limiting voice in our culture so often to only tell a certain part of the story and represent in a specific way that we feel the pressure of that then leads us to really lose who we are.
And so we have to revisit, we have to fuse ourselves back with those stories in a way that allows us to know where we are so that we can tell the story we want to tell and make it an epic. That truly is of huge proportions that allows that mission of our lives to be found in that, that mess that we have, because that's where our message really is. It's deeply embedded in the stories that we've been told and that have shaped us to this point. And the only way forward is to understand where we're coming from.
[00:07:26] Ali: Dude, that's big. So, I want to talk a little bit more about mess, which you brought up. To reiterate that, the acronym _MESS_ stands for Mental, Emotional, and then Spiritual State, which I think is awesome. And as it blends into this fusion, this is such a simple, but concise way to kind of represent who we are to your point. And then now with this awareness, or at least like being one with that in yourself, then we can start to have the convo of integrating and being oneness with everyone else. Is that kind of what I'm catching?
[00:08:03] Les: Yes. And there's a rebellion in my own mind, probably against a lot of the low hanging, easily spiritualized things that we do in this world. And by the way, there's no judgment here with regard to people doing these things. They're still being guided by things like plant based medicine or meditation or yoga or things that take us on these journeys to find ourselves. Is that we're not really going into it with a long term plan.
We're going to into it with more of an immediate gratification. So we go in and we get this huge spiritual high. We feel so charged and then we get back plugged into our life without ever integrating those things that we discovered about ourselves during those times and we just integrate right back into our mess. And so then we have to have another high.
I think that's why we have to use things that are outside of our bodies in order to give us that pattern interrupt. But really the key for me in the mess is how can you begin to no longer be dependent on anything outside of yourself?
How can you become more aware of your current practices, your current levels of understanding? And humble yourself just long enough to actually be able to unlock some of that depth within you.
We have a lot of books on our shelves. You do, I do. How many people walk around saying, oh man, I read this book the other day and book chapter reverse, here it is. And, and you're like, oh, that's so good. But how many people have really let that drop into their heart and move from this knowledge based into the wisdom space of the soul, the throne room that you are. That is the essence to me that people are just living in a throne room that was created for them rather than developing the throne that they desire for themselves and living into that more fully.
[00:09:48] Ali: That's cool, brother. So to kind of wrap that you're doing leadership and life coaching at what I would call a fundamental level, helping people be with their MESS, look at their MESS, understand their MESS. And again, it's so beautiful because we could have separate podcasts on each one of those, which we're not going to do for time.
But I love that that's the way that you wrapped things because it's such a clear way and it's a big part of my journey in like getting an understanding awareness of the mental side, then the emotional side, even the spiritual side. And I think it's really interesting.
A question I have for you is that, as you do this work with people, do you notice if there's patterns to kind of work through one first and then evolve in the other or is it more just like where do you need the most support or where have you not invested?
[00:10:38] Les: I think the challenge is, is that I don't think most people even know where to start. Right. Okay. So often I think the salesperson who's got the loudest and best marketing play, is the one that people go to and it is a pop culture kind of movement in a lot of ways.
This whole guruism, I actually, you're gonna have to remind me of the question in two seconds, but I literally thought of a reality television show yesterday as I was watching American Idol with my wife, I said, how cool would it be to marry this idea of, you know, you've got all these relational ones where people date and all this stuff, and then you got the American Idol and I just get so locked in on, wow, their gifts are coming out.
What if you had all the gurus show up and proposed gurus and the premise was we're going to flip the script on how people get to stay. And so you start to see through the gurus that are just up here who have a system, who have a great whatever, and the people who stay are the ones who live it, breathe it, are patient, they're kind, they're quiet. Just to watch this so people can learn how to discern this stuff, you know. So going back to your question, ask the question again, cause I think...
[00:11:47] Ali: You answered it in a way and what I filtered from what you just shared last, which is a powerful point is it so many people I'd say either get stuck or aren't even aware of the mental side. So it becomes this whole like popularity marketing thing. And especially in the coaching world, whereas that's important because that's a lot of where their intellectual growth and understanding comes from.
But the emotional and spiritual sides are so much more powerful from my experience. So it's almost like you have to get through the mental or even sometimes pause it and tell it to relax so that you can start to feel into those other two. Right?
[00:12:23] Les: Yeah. Before I did my plant based journey, here's what I had to do. And this is what I'm talking about, but I'm going to use plant based ceremony because people can go, Oh yeah, I get that.
I was required to get off any medicines that I was on. I wasn't supposed to drink for a month. I was, not to eat meat for two weeks prior. Not to have sex a week or two prior. I can't remember which one it was. And so there was this preparation that I was doing to go into this space where I was removing all of the distractions that were in my life, that I could go fully inward on myself.
It was hard work. Yet all we want to do is click that system online and buy the thing that promises that you're going to get to seven or eight figures, or you're going to find yourself in a matter of five days. The promises that we make are fully dependent on the individual who's participating, not the one who's presenting it.
And so, I've lived in this fear of, I don't want to present anything that I don't live by. And so the ROI on this thing has been a challenge for me because it may play out of money, but you may also decide you don't want that much more money anymore.
You may decide that abundance looks totally different. And so there's this difficulty in, in our world today around this individual idea of success and making it and all that stuff that is what people have to go through. I can't distress enough. We have to go through what we have to go through. I've had to go through what I've had to go through to arrive at this place that isn't even the final destination.
So we're all working on that process of living into that space that we occupy and understanding the distinction between who I am and everything else that is around me. Rather than I am trying to plug myself in to be like everything else around me.
And there's a huge threat around if I don't fix myself the way that they want me to be fixed, then I can't quite fit. And that is a journey that can lead you down to this place of even being lost further.
And the core of what I'm working towards is just to help everyone be able to see that their space is our space, no matter how you live your life. And in that place, there is a lovely and beautiful opportunity for you to truly capture who you are and to allow that to shift within you in a way that you can stand more confidently in your space and know that I am here occupying this space because I have a mission.
I could go on that one for a long time, but space is a real big one for me. And I mean, the literal space and also all the way into the micro to the macro. And there is a lot of wisdom when we can start to face that and live into that place. But we have to be willing to silence the noise.
And I am challenged by it. I have way too many certifications because I was like, I'm just not fit for this. I'm not fit for this. I have stories that I've told myself that required other people who are in my story to go, dude, no, we need that thing. So it's just a matter of being able to create some distinctions between the ego and the highest self and that highest calling.
[00:15:38] Ali: Dude, there's a lot in there. What I want to do though, is tie it back to the word space. Cause you mentioned that a few times. I know that word's important to you. Obviously it's important to this podcast. So the question I have to kind of keep the momentum going that you've created here, is what does it mean for you to create space?
[00:15:59] Les: Well, first of all, I don't know that it is a matter of creating space for me. I think it's to see myself in space. Okay. So when I sit in my meditations, when I sit in anxiety, when I sit in the moments, the thing that grounds me the most is strangely to go as far out as I can and as far in as I can.
It's really an awareness. It's an awareness of how small we are. You know, when we play the God of our lives, we lose the space factor. We start to think that we are responsible for everyone else in our world. Guys especially, we try to fix our wives. We don't listen. We don't take it in. We don't trust and have faith that this thing that has been set in motion that's literally... we're hurling through space on a tiny little speck of sand in the middle of a galaxy that's in the middle of a cosmos among other galaxies. And it's all just a macro version of what's going on internally inside of me.
And when I can settle into that space of an awareness that there's something else at work beyond what I can even imagine. And then I can sit with the idea of, well, what is affecting me right now? My mental state, man, I'm stressed about this thing. And where do I feel that? Man, I feel that in my back, my back is killing me. Like, wow, I feel that right now. And then I can rest in that and begin to settle in the spiritual part of that and go, man, you know, this whole thing is working for me. I don't have to worry about food. It's going to rain. And it doesn't matter what I've done that day. If it needs to rain, it's going to rain.
And I can start to understand the over overwhelming abundance that life really has to offer and I can get out of my way. Get out of my way with the solutions that I think I know, or the things that I think I need and surrender to that space, then things truly start to show up differently in the most random sort of ways. We call them synchronicities.
And this is what it's been like for as long as, uh, any documentation we have of spiritual walks, it is not a spiritual thing. It's a physical reality playing out in this world and the people's only solution comes when they can finally realize they're not in control.
They don't have to control this. They can let go of it. And when they do, source, God, you know, whatever you decide to call it, that thing that's so much bigger than a name, will show up in the most crazy sorts of ways. Shows up in the people like you in my life. It shows up in Front Row Dads. It shows up in interviews that help me shape and form my thoughts. It shows up in people who just hug me.
What does it look like when people can realize that they're not alone . And our individual quests for greatness and success and getting to the top of the hill of life, that's actually something that creates a very lonely space. And yet somehow we still think we want that.
And I'm not saying it's bad to have those things, but a lot of times the people who are at the top are very isolated and alienated from our world to the degree that it creates a resistance. It creates an inequality. And that's the injustice I feel like we do in our world is we don't recognize ourselves in that one space because we're chasing after that solo spot at the top of our industry, the top of our life, the top of our family, you know. So this whole thing is swimming in the same realm of just not understanding our place in this space.
[00:19:21] Ali: Absolutely. That lands. So much of what you shared there in different ways, is just our relationship to space. So I love that when I asked you, where are you creating space, you're like, actually, I'm just being with the space. I'm acknowledging it, I'm learning from it and moving through it moving with it.
Because one of the things I strongly agree with that you said in there, Les, is this desire to control is so powerful in human society. And not that it's good or bad, right or wrong, from my lens, it's just, it's this really powerful energy. And oftentimes it creates even more of what you were describing is like friction, resistance because you start to have unhealthy separation where like someone's over here and they're leading this thing, someone's over here and we start to lose touch with balance, with harmony, with some of the things that I think space represents.
So, I love how you gave those different examples and a lot of that, like I said, just lands where it applies to every facet of our life. It applies to the work we do, applies to the people we love, the interests we have. And so thank you for giving a really cool response to not necessarily how you're creating space, but how you're just being with the space.
It leads to something else I wanted to ask you about because it's a conversation we've had in previous discussions. And with space, there can sometimes be this relationship to chaos. What does chaos mean to you? How does that show up in your life in meaningful ways?
[00:20:55] Les: So when I sit down in that space, right, and I'm with space, the chaos is there. And in a world that hates pain and runs from pain...
[00:21:05] Ali: Is it always there?
[00:21:07] Les: Always. It's always there. Cool. At least, at least in my own perspective. And where that comes from is chaos is the essence of creation. Without chaos, there's nothing to create.
And so we have the opportunity and our friend had this eloquent way of talking about how our stress can lead us into a downroll spiral that leads to chaos, or it can lead to creativity. And my argument is we can either swim in chaos or we can build a boat. We have the choice. And we just need to know the tools and understand the tools so that we can understand that that's what's happening. And we're not stuck that that very thing that we feel overwhelmed by is the very place from which we can create that space that we desire to have for our lives.
And it can be abused. Like when people understand this, I really believe that you can create structures that are powerful and you can manipulate people and utilize it for the purposes of more chaos that is to your own benefit.
When you create hungry people and you've got access to food. Where do they have to go? And so much of the marketing that you see out there is always telling us we're not enough. And that you need more of what I have. Right. They're telling us that they're not enough is because they need to create chaos for us. And they know they have a solution that will feed us temporarily. And then the cycle can continue.
[00:22:28] Ali: That's real. That's literally marketing. Is that, how do we create chaos so people can have another pain, instill fear and pain. Absolutely.
[00:22:36] Les: And so we actually want to create the chaos so that we can offer the solution that will then provide for us. And there's nothing wrong with that, that measure of being able to be a support system. The problem is, is that it gets outta whack. And it gets to the point where that power starts to become, I've got to conquer.
[00:22:52] Ali: Back to the control you mentioned, exactly.
[00:22:54] Les: Once you gain control, now you have to conquer. And I love Alan Watts's book,_ The Wisdom of Insecurity_, because he states in this that, the idea is that transcendence being able to have the foundation rooted in something much larger than us is where it really is. But we've been chasing after security. Well, then what happens is as soon as you have security, guess what you have to have? You have to have cameras, you have to have alarms, you have to have all these things. And all the while you're always wondering, is it going to go off? Your phone beeps now and you can look and see who's at the front door and everything is anxiety ridden. It feels like it's safety for a second because you know, but what can you do about it? You really do about it?
And so this idea of the moment that I feel secure, I now have to protect that security, which makes me in theory, insecure. We're stuck. So what is it that we land on? What can we land on? And to me, that's where faith comes in. And I don't mean, you know, faith, this thing that we build our religions and our spirituality on.
I'm talking about faith that this whole thing is for me. That it's not against me. The odds of me and you sitting here having this conversation, it's unreal how many things had to transpire just right for us to be here to have this conversation. And yet my ego is like, no, of course we're here.
Do we really want to live our life in constant scrutiny over myself in comparison to others? Do I really want to have to keep up with the Joneses? I mean, man, it's so overwhelming.
[00:24:25] Ali: Exhausting. Exhausting.
[00:24:27] Les: We know that bell curve of, of information and technology has just far exceeded our ability to grow alongside of it. There's too much to consume. And what is the goal? And that's the question that I wrestle with every day is what is the goal? And the, the closest I can come to at this point is to surrender and to do so with humility and to tap into my compassion because I can understand how the most heinous crime lies deep within me.
Dude, have you ever had a thought of you know, you're watching a TV show, maybe it's a murder mystery or something and you're like, oh, I totally would have done it this way instead. I mean, have you not had that thought?
[00:25:08] Ali: I've had that thought. I've also had thoughts where I'm like watching a sporting event. I'm like, I totally should be in that game. Like I would do it so differently. Yeah.
[00:25:18] Les: We know that our ego is so, so ingrained in deeply strong. It has a role. It's just that it's been, you know, out of whack for some time. And I'm at least at this stage and I, I'm stoic enough to say, I reserve the right to change my opinion at any time with new information.
But right now at this point, I don't really know that there is any concept that can serve everyone. Because we all come at it with different understandings of every word that we speak. Love. What does that mean? Space. What does that mean? You know, I love the word awful.
Like I've explained several things in my life that I think God is awful, right? You know why I think God is awful? Because I am so overwhelmed with awe. Right. Right. Right. I, his fullness of awe. That doesn't sound, that doesn't communicate to a lot of people. So we are all just doing the best we can.
And so I think there's a sense of humility that we have to continue to grab in our space to continually remind ourselves, this is not who I am. I am not this moment in time. I'm connected to just this bigger thing, you know.
And how would that impact our businesses is unbelievable because all of a sudden your people would feel they matter. That their chaos is actually something that you want to understand because you know, that that's where creativity resides, protecting ourselves from that. And, oh, I don't want to let them know where I'm weak. You instead have this opportunity to talk to the people that you work with and say, how would you solve this?
And they're like, I don't know, cause I'm dealing with blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And you're like, oh man, that looks like that's got some creative paint colors of chaos that we can use to actually begin to create this masterpiece together. So that, yeah. Man, that's a lot.
[00:27:06] Ali: There's a lot. Let me reflect a couple things back to you. So first, I love how you you quickly described chaos is the essence of creation. And you gave all these amazing arguments that there's such a light to be seen in chaos, because we often think of chaos as a dark thing. Whereas the way that you describe them, like, holy cow, it's such a healthy reminder to just be like, there's always going to be some method of chaos.
I see it with my family. I see it in my work. I see it in nature. And if nothing else, it's just this root, this essence of creation, which is beautiful. And so to be with that, to understand it.
The other thing you said, which is a really powerful word. It's a part of my journey. I feel like it's a part of our collective journey, especially as we're having this conversation and leaning into space and being with each other, oneness, is surrender.
So you gave some great examples on how, when we start to lean into surrender and really embrace it, we get out of this whole control based thinking, control based society, and things start to flow. Things start to, for me at least, start to move into acceptance instead of resistance.
And that's where chaos, fusion, all the awesome things we've been talking about, just start to exist. They start to blend in a way that they share the same space. And I think surrender is such an important part of it because it's hard.
And if there's anything as we're discussing this in real time, Les, I realized that you and I had a conversation quite some time ago, probably two, maybe even three years ago, we're talking a bit about this. And I remember going and reading the surrender experiment via your recommendation. And after I read that book, It wasn't the book that changed me. I was so immersed in the story and then understood how it could apply to my life. And then I started practicing it, which is something else you mentioned.
It wasn't like I just intellectualized and said, Hey, you should read this book because it's all about surrender. I was like, this book was powerful for me. And now I'm going to start surrendering, which I did. And it's exactly why we're here now. It's exactly a part of my story. It's exactly part of all these things that you've mentioned.
And if there's anything I would say to really like summarize or validate how important surrender is in my life, I've gained so much more peace from it. Prior to surrender, I was in control. You know, the whole " by me" philosophy, I'm the creator of my destiny, which was cool, but it was not peaceful.
Whereas now the last almost three years I've been living in this world of more surrender and I just have more peace. So, I feel like that's a big part of your journey as well.
[00:29:57] Les: Oh yeah. Yeah. I mean, I have this image of, I think it was two episodes of Ted Lasso ago. You're are you a Ted Lasso guy?
[00:30:06] Ali: Because of you. And I love that show.
[00:30:09] Les: So, I'm so bad at all the names. So it's going to be like, it's good. It's going to hit me. The guy who's grumpy, uh, Oh, this, the old star, Roy, Roy, Roy is driving. Like he's, he's like onto Jamie and Jamie's trying to, you know, train, train, train. He's trained them all the time and they go and they find them.
They find some bikes when they're in Amsterdam and Roy doesn't know how to ride a bike. So he gets on the bike and like, he's just all over the place and doing all this stuff. And it wasn't until Jamie says, "look where you're wanting to go." And it was in that moment when he quit trying to control the thing and looked where he wanted to go, that he was able to ride the bike balanced and everything.
And the control is the thing that keeps us sitting there and we're rigid. And we know that that stiff muscles don't fire well, but we run around this world, stiff necked and stiff muscled and, and we're like, so struggling to control our situation, when all we need to really do is set our sights on where we want to go.
And that, that's not like a surrender of my will. That's not a surrender of, you know, what I want or any. What it is, is it's, it's me trusting that I have to be connected to, to source. I have to be connected to myself in a way that's moving beyond the ego.
And I have to be real, I have to look in the mirror, but when I do that and I can see myself just holding on so tight. To everything that I want in my life. It's in that moment that I go, man, I can't do anything right now because I'm holding onto what I think it looks like rather than opening up my hands and relaxing my body and allowing myself to breathe.
And then, I can set a vision because I can see clearly up in front of me, rather than head down. We miss all the opportunities when we're like looking straight down and trying to control. And surrender is nothing more than just taking the time to look up and, and trust that when you look up, you will know, you were created to move in that direction. There's nothing to do except commit to it.
You will have actions as a result of that. But it's not you trying to manifest it. It's you trusting that it's already been done. It's already being done. It's the, I am statements, right? We are sitting here because I am, and you are, and we are resting in the larger I am of the cosmos and God and source and all of those things.
You know, being reactive in our world is what got us here. Reactivity is nothing but control. Responsiveness is a trust. It's the difference between being responsible for and being responsible to.
Responsible for is, I got to control, I got to fix, I got to make it work. Responsible to is, I have a role to play in this, and I'm going to lean into my role, and whoever wants it is welcome to participate in it. That's where fusion can occur. That's where we can come together, and we can start to talk, because it's not just my information that I've got in my head from how I've been formed, but it's a willingness to listen to other voices with new information, or even old information. And, and allowing that to also inform what I know.
Because my way of life has been restricted to a few hundred people at a time. And we live in a world of billions. How can I ever imagine that I've got some sort of control over space and time all by myself? It's a way just to slow ourselves down in this journey that we're on.
It's just, it's an opportunity for us to truly breathe into where do we want to go based upon what we know about ourselves and our mess. And how it really wants to direct us. And getting an alignment between that and this physical reality that I'm living in. That's my quest. That's how I work with folks.
When I'm working with my clients, you know, the greatest gift I have is to just let them walk them through their story. And then all of a sudden they begin to see, Oh my goodness. Wow. I didn't realize. I mean, it's mind blowing the, the, the stories that we have out there, you know.
And that surrendered space is that place that you can begin to do that. And that is a crazy story. _The Surrender Experiment_ is a crazy story. Yeah. And, I want to live into that. I want to be okay with the hard things as well as the good things, because how can you ever appreciate anything if you don't really go through something that's challenging?
You know, entitlement comes when you start to protect something that you think you're owed and that's a recipe for unhappiness.
[00:34:51] Ali: Dude, a lot of great metaphors in there. So thank you for wrapping that and bringing this like really healthy closure to surrender and what can come of that.
It kind of lends into the final topic I wanted to discuss with you, which is transformation. So, I know you've had your relationship with transformation, I know you've seen it in others. And then, as you started to share, like, being able to hold space and coach other people, what does that look like for you now?
I imagine it's changed. In my world, it's changed a lot. But, I'd love for you to spend a little bit of time just talking about, like, what does transformation mean to you?
[00:35:33] Les: Well, the simple answer, if there is one, is it looks like nothing changes and you're okay with it. It's just this ability to sit with what is and to still love yourself.
I don't know if you're guilty of this, but man, I can beat myself up really quickly when things are not going according to a plan. When I'm trying to control things and I get...
Oh, technology's the best. You know, today I had none, but sometimes when I'm like, all right, I got a podcast, you know, all right, I'm going to, I'm going to do this podcast and I sit down and I'm like, I got all this high end equipment. Dude, I can rip myself.
You would think that like the devil comes out and then rips Les McDaniel to shreds. And it's ugly and it's nasty. Right. So that does not produce happiness. But there is something when I can go, Hey, you know what, maybe I should just use AirPods today. Let's go. So let's just grab the phone and the AirPods.
Okay. Well that none of that worked. Right. Well, let's just not record today. Because it's not working out, you know, it's surrender. So when you can release that, so transformation really is all about awareness.
The homework that I give people is, how many times can you catch yourself in that space? How many times can you catch yourself doing that thing? You can only catch yourself so many times before you do you want to do things? You go back to the distractions and the ways that you avoided it before, or you look deeper.
And transformation is in the looking deeper. It's be okay when you're not in the greatest health. And maybe you're overweight, maybe you're not feeling great. And you can look in that mirror and you can begin to see the full picture.
We do this well with others. I had a, um, experience with Heatherly, not too long ago. It was right before bed. I gave her a kiss and then I stopped and I looked deep in her eyes and I go, it just hit me. I know what makes this so special. I see you right now.
I looked at her and I said, in that moment when I just kissed you, what I kissed was the girl that I kissed the first time, the first time that we made love. I kissed the girl that I said yes to. I saw the woman who bore my child. It's like this flood of all at once memories that make a collective life of her.
That moment wasn't there for me to say, you are so sexy. And I mean, there are times that that is, but even that is still informed by the full picture of the life that we have shared together.
And I feel that that is the nature of transformation is when you can begin to not just see the present moment as a thing that you lust after or envy after, or you compare yourself to, or all those things and wish that you were somewhere else.
But instead it's when you can go and look at the full picture. I am here today because I resisted X. I didn't want to be like blank. And those are all valiant things that for me and for my mess, for my mental, emotional, and spiritual state are integral to my transformation in my health as a human being. That's the core of it for me.
I mean, dude, when I see you, like you described our relationship beautifully at the very beginning. Because what I remember are the boy, and the girl, and the mom, and the dad, sitting in a room, loving on me, loving on each other, playing together. And then I remember going to dinner, and taking the walk around, and, and, you know, and just, like, Everest.
[00:39:01] Ali: Everest is on your shoulders.
[00:39:03] Les: My shoulders, and, you know, and Sepia's just, just like, right there, and just like, let's go, let's go, and just, that's us, right? That's our oneness. Yes. That experience together.
And I know we've been on Front Row Dads retreats and that oneness is what happens when we all let go and surrender to the moment. And when we don't, it's miserable for the person who doesn't. True. It's always miserable for the people who don't surrender to the moment.
I want to remember you as this whole picture. We don't talk about, look at him, he's dead. Look at him, his eyes are closed, like at our deathbed. He's wearing a suit. Doesn't he look great? I mean, we might say some of those things. No, we go and we talk about the whole story. Yes.
And it's redemptive because it's the pain, and it's the, it's the power of the beautiful states that we got to witness with one another. It's all of those things, and it's that collective that is beyond time. And that is the legacy we truly leave behind is , what kind of imprint, what is the DNA that I drip everywhere I go. It's contagious.
And it can be going the way. And I want my contagion to be one that is beautiful. I want everyone to want to catch this. I can't make that for people, but I would love that. That would be amazing. If we could all actually, I don't know if it would be great. I mean, you think about that, we've got to have a little chaos, right? You gotta, you gotta have someone disrupting it. So have fun.
[00:40:30] Ali: Oh, man. What a beautiful answer, man. Just the way that you described that. Definitely not a way that anyone's described transformation on this podcast. And even as you shared some of that, that felt new, man. That felt, it was just so full of Les, so full of life because we've had such awesome convos in this realm, but we haven't had that exact convo.
And so thank you now for just sharing that, but for also bringing that nostalgia back when you spent some time with us, cause that was a really nice experience with you and you just wove it right in there.
Brother, I went on at a clock today. Otherwise, you and I are going to create a mega podcast.
[00:41:10] Les: Mega podcast?
That's a different podcast. That's a fun podcast. If you ever watched it, the mega, mega, the podcast is awesome.
[00:41:16] Ali: Oh, really? Okay. No, I haven't. But yeah, but this today is a treat. It's always a pleasure. Do you have any final words before we wrap up?
[00:41:26] Les: I love you. I love your family. I want to honor you and the space that you continue to hold for others. And, you know, you're a great friend and I just wish we could hang out more. Although I got you next week.
[00:41:39] Ali: Yes. Yeah, dude. Thank you. Yes. The love is mutual. You mean a lot to the Jafarians and to me. So thank you for being here. Thank you for being in our life. I will see you in Utah. Yes. And then until the next time, my brother.
[00:41:56] Les: Peace to you, bro.
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It was a men’s retreat through Front Row Dads, which I designed and led with my good friend and FRD brother, Chris Emick. Chris and I started planning this retreat last year when we were hiking a 14er together, then earlier this month we put things in motion with the FRD team.
The theme of the retreat was two-fold:
- First, we wanted men to have an opportunity to disconnect and experience time with no demands. Time away from normal life and responsibilities. This is a concept we picked up from John Wineland’s book – From the Core.
- Second, we wanted men to discover their wild, primal self. Chris and I believe that nature is a natural playground, and the perfect environment to come back to who we are at our core. It’s inviting us to rediscover our wild, primal self. The self that was designed from nature.
Eight men committed to the retreat and helped co-create an extraordinary experience.
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So I've been doing just that today. I have a very special episode for you. This is going to be a recap of a recent retreat I led out here in Colorado. It was a men's retreat through Front Row Dads, which I designed and led with my good friend and FRD brother, Chris Emick.
Chris and I started planning this retreat last year when we were actually hiking a 14er together out here in Colorado. And then earlier this year, we put things in motion with FRD team. There was clear alignment. And then we started designing the experience. That's how we started. promoting it, and eight men committed to the retreat, showed up here several weeks ago and helped co-create an extraordinary experience.
Here is the recap.
So, first and foremost, the theme of this retreat was twofold. First, we wanted men to have an opportunity to disconnect and experience "time with no demands." This is essentially time away from normal life and normal responsibilities, normal requests. I actually just published a blog post about this, which emphasizes the value in having time and no demands.
It's a concept I learned from John Wineland. Writes about in his book "From The Core". It's a powerful concept that's been very important in my life. And it's one of the things I wanted to gift and encourage these men with Chris to embrace during this retreat.
The second big thing is that Chris and I wanted men to discover their wild, primal self. We both believe that nature is a natural playground and really the perfect environment to come back to who we are at our core. Nature just invites us to rediscover our wild primal self, the way that we were born into this world, the self that was designed from nature.
And so we're both very passionate about that. That's why Chris and I love to hike together, like to climb mountains, like to be outside. And so that was definitely the other big thing we wanted these men to experience if we could give them anything. And so we designed an experience that would focus on these two things and more.
I want to give you a brief overview. I'm not going to spill everything. I was even conflicted on if I should do a podcast about this because of the nature of how intimate and powerful this retreat was for the men that showed up. And I decided that I do want to share this because I think they would be totally fine with the high level details.
And honestly, this is the type of experience you had to be at to really experience the full effects, you know, the, the profound things that took place and were co-created there. So I'm going to give you the brief version. I'm going to give you an overview of the four or five days we spent together and then some key highlights.
So day one, the focus was an invitation.
Chris and I both agreed from the start that we wanted most of the things we did on this retreat to be a strong invitation. So we designed things intentionally. But every man had his own choice at every single moment. And it was ended up being really beautiful because almost everything we designed was welcomed warmly by the group and experienced together. So there was actually very little turning down or rejecting of the invitations.
The first sort of exercise as an invitation was organizing in Denver and then bringing these men out to the mountains about two hours west. We spent the first night in Silverthorne. We had a beautiful first dinner together where men started to kind of open up and start to get vulnerable.
And then side note, Chris and I had a really, Lovely conversation before going to bed about our dogs. He just lost his dog of 13 years, which is a very special companion to him, and I lost my dog, Raja, last year. So we had some beautiful stories to share before wrapping up the first night.
The second day is when we really got into things, and the focus of this day was comfort zone.
So, we started early. Got the guys up, did an early morning cold plunge in Lake Dillon. To my surprise, the lake actually wasn't as cold as I thought. It was probably in the 50s. The sun had just come up. So we got sort of a treat in terms of a cold plunge.
But it shocked the system exactly how we needed. Everyone jumped in. One of the brothers, Paul, raced into the lake and set the pace for the rest of us to get in and join him. It was magical.
It felt like little kids that couldn't wait to get into the lake. And that is again, going back to the wild primal self, just seeing that big, beautiful body of water and wanting to embrace it and be with it. And so we all did that as a group.
Then shortly after we went and changed temperatures and got into the hot tub. And this was a nice time for us to shift and experience some different energy. And again, guys started to open up and share why they chose to come here. Some of the things that they're, they're navigating right now, challenges, wins, all that great stuff that we do as men's work through Front Row Dads.
Shortly after we had a breakfast and then Chris led a nice exercise where we showed the men how to pack. So our next couple of days we're going to be in the back country of Leadville, which means we had to pack everything we were taking in there. This is not a situation where we get a bunch of luggage shipped. It's like whatever we can fit on our backs is essentially what would go with us.
So , we ran through getting the essentials, the things that we needed for ourselves in terms of clothing, hiking, just outdoor apparel, all that good stuff. And then we split up snacks and food, the things that we would eat as a group and individually during those, the next 48 hours.
So there's some art to this. There's also some logic and Chris is masterful in how he does this. He's had a lot of solo adventures where he's had to pack for weeks if not months at a time. So, it was really cool to learn from him and go through that exercise and kind of show those men that, Hey, we got, we have to be intentional in here. We have to strategize.
So we packed it all up and then we headed out to Leadville. There was about a one hour, 90 minute ish hike into the hut. And by hut, I mean, this is an off grid cabin. So this is out in Leadville Colorado, 11, 000 plus feet elevation. Definitely a more aggressive environment if you're not used to elevation.
But a beautiful, beautiful, place to be. I mean, after the 90 minute hike in, I just intentionally watched guys body language as they saw the hut and they saw the mountain in the background. And you could just tell that again, that child, that wild self was coming out, like just excited to be in this space, excited to be with nature and this beautiful cabin that was designed to live minimally with, with essentials.
And so back to the cabin, this thing is run off solar power. So It has a basic well for water, but other than that, no electricity, no, no sewage. You know, this is a, is a cabin that can house 12, 15, 20 people, but just the essentials that you need to be there. And a lot of people out here in Colorado actually use it for backcountry skiing. So they, uh, hike out into there and then in the winter months they'll do some backcountry skiing. They'll stay in the hut, they'll have a fire, all that, that awesome stuff.
So, as soon as we got there and got settled in, I actually decided, hey, let's go explore. So again, the kid came out. I was thinking like, I wonder if there's another way up that mountain that we're gonna hike the next day. And also we needed to grab water.
So we went, four or five of us went out there. Found a nice stream to collect some water and then also did a little bit of recon to see was there an alternative route up the mountain that we'd be taking tomorrow. That was a nice way to just kind of get a lay of the land and explore a bit.
We found this beautiful little pond with lily pads. It was pretty special. And then we came back with several gallons of water. Props to Dumi, Dumisani, who... Carried a five gallon water jug on his back. So he raised his hand first to, to do the heavy lifting. And then part of this process of being in his cabin is you bring the water back and you have to filter it.
So we have to run it through a nice system that purifies it and get some of the bacteria and other things out so that it's drinkable and usable.
So we got back. Got some water in shape and then it was time to fish. So me and a few other men went up. We did some fishing. Unfortunately, we did not come back with any fish. In hindsight, we realized that we probably brought the wrong bait and I take responsibility for that. I am NOT a master fisherman, but I have done some fishing and I was hopeful that some of the other bait that I brought and the spinners I bought would work, but they did not.
And we know they did not work because we saw a lot of fish jumping. So I was like literally running over trying to cast over into the areas where the fish were jumping out and looking for flies and none of them were having the bait we brought. So we came back empty handed, but upon our arrival back to the cabin, Chris and the rest of the guys had an awesome taco dinner, pork carnitas ready for us. It was a glorious meal.
Everyone pitched in and contributed. So props to all the men. It was such a team effort to get a great meal like that prepared with Chris's leadership. And that meal was awesome. There's something about meals in the back country. Meals and in off grid cabins like this. Meals at the top of the mountain, which I'll talk about in a second.
Like these just tastes so good to me. They're so fresh or so organic. So that was a great way to break that bread as a group and nourish our bodies.
And then we finished the day, the second day with a fire. So Paul created a nice fire for us. Guys slowly made their way out there after dinner. And as the sun started to set, it became very majestic.
I mean, just being out there in that fresh air, isolated with no one. You know, we saw a few deer here and there, but just so serene to have time by that fire with men who chose to be here and chose to surrender to some of the stuff they were doing.
And funny enough, a really cool moment is that one of the guys decided to let out a fart. And then I quickly followed. I love farting, for the record. Something me and my kids do. I think farts are hilarious. I think a lot of humans take them too seriously. They're just, to me, it's just a fun expression of noise. And especially if it makes your body feel better.
And it was so interesting how having one of the guys fart allowed me to go, and then the laughter came. And then we realized we were no different than our seven year old selves or our child selves just sitting around the fire, talking, laughing, having fun.
I even posed the question. "I wonder what our ancestors would be doing right now?" And some things that came up is I think they'd be enjoying full days like this. I think they'd be earning their food and arguably wouldn't have come back empty handed without fish. I think they'd be telling stories.
And that's something I realized today is that humans are still telling stories. We do it in different ways. This is a story in itself, this podcast, this episode. But there's something about a fire that I think can really evoke storytelling. And so, we had a special second night around that fire to kind of cap the day that men slowly found their way to bed in the cabin.
And then next was day three, the focus of day three was the mountain.
We were blessed with an early morning meditation by Brent, one of the men who came and helped co lead in a beautiful way of guiding us through breath work and then a meditation. Um, this first meditation that morning centered around our ego. And I can't give you all the details, but I will say that Brent has a gift for leading this type of meditation and this breath work and the way that he curated this. The words and the energy was magical.
I mean, it was a powerful way for a lot of us to open up and share some pretty profound things. It even evoked what ended up becoming the theme of the retreat, which was "Show Yourself." So one of the brothers, Paul, mentioned show yourself from the movie Frozen, funny enough.
But it translated right into what we were trying to do here, what we were trying to create, what we were trying to evoke. And that is just showing up as our authentic selves, being fully present and enabling that wild, primal, curious, wondrous self to come out and essentially just be who we are in nature with each other.
So that was a really, really nice gift that came from that first meditation. And then a lot of the energy was set. So a lot of us were charged. I read a little bit about my philosophy on mountains and rivers and the cosmos. This is something I've written about. If I were to ever write a book, this is actually what I would write it about, and I've been thinking about that.
But the theme here was setting concepts that a mountain is a symbol of achievement. A river is a symbol of surrender. And the cosmos is a symbol of peace. And these are interchangeable, right? It doesn't have to be set in stone, but these are the ways that I like to play with these concepts at a high level.
And so it was a really nice thing to just set the tone for as we hike because guys would come up and we'd have conversations and they'd start talking about mountains in their life, metaphorically, or rivers in their life, or if they were, felt like they're currently climbing a mountain or surrendering to a river. And then when the cosmos shows up, right. When we have moments of peace.
So it's a really beautiful way to influence conversation as we were literally hiking a mountain. And getting into the mountain hike. This was a 13er or. So this is the most challenging thing you can do in Colorado besides the famous 14ers. And it's only a thousand ish feet in elevation difference. So still extremely challenging.
14ers are really not that much different than 13ers. You're still getting to that very high elevated state where the environment is tougher, the air is thinner, and it takes grit, it takes stamina. And some of these men simply hadn't done this before. So it was a really cool experience where we were tested individually, we were tested as a group.
Some men were able to lead the charge, others took risks. Like Matt Woodward, found his Misogi, this is a concept that came out of the book, The Comfort Crisis. And he was able to kind of see a different path that he knew would challenge him that would be his Misogi. And so he took that path and it was, it was beautiful.
At first I was a little bit nervous for him and kind of resistant. But then I said, Hey, if this is your Misogi, you choose it, you take it. And he did just that with a couple other guys. So that was pretty special to watch. And it was just awesome to watch some of these other men push themselves. Because again, this was new for them. It was testing their comfort zone. It was giving them that mountain experience in real time.
And, after we got to the summit, there was a nice time to rest. There was a nice time for silence. A nice time for... Celebration. I passed out an apple, which is my ritual, my tradition. Every time I climb anything of significance like 14er or 13er or I like to bring apples with me. And I tell people this is the best apple you'll ever eat. For me, these apples just keep getting better and better. Again something about being in nature, something about being disconnected and having real food, fruit from the earth just really lands with me.
So, it was awesome to share that with these guys. We had some moments, some times to ourselves. And then funny enough, a couple of guys, Ticknor and Phillip, both suggested this idea to take a different way down.
So a lot of times when you hike big mountains in Colorado, you'll go up and you'll go back down. It's the easiest route. It's familiar. It's proven. But those of us who like to take more risks will sometimes deviate and say, great, let's explore. And that's exactly what we did. And funny enough, after about a couple hours in, we realized this was gonna be a much longer hike than any of us anticipated.
So the eyes deceived us at the summit and we found ourselves, uh, some of us fairly exhausted, tired, and knowing that we didn't have the stamina or the desire to continue going three, four more hours all the way around this ridge, which would've brought us back, you know, closer to sundown.
So couple guys made a quick decision to head down a fairly sketchy and extremely steep path. And at first this was scary, so I felt myself as sort of a co leader of the experience being like, Wait a second, this feels dangerous. My reptilian brain definitely kicked in and was on guard. And Chris had the same, I sensed he had the exact same initial reaction is like wait a second. That doesn't feel safe.
And I think this is inherent. They wouldn't we know we're guiding these men. We feel a little bit responsible for them for their safety. At first it didn't feel like something we wanted the whole group to do. But there was an element of surrender to this and a couple men had already gone and another guy was being very helpful in sort of guiding the the path that he thought was the best, Matthew Woodward. And so we took some of that guidance and we found ourselves as a group navigating down a very challenging and steep route.
And after a good hour, 90 minutes of that, just scrambling over big, loose, steep rocks, we all found ourselves down as a group and we celebrated. We let out a sigh of relief. And then there was only one thing left to do, and that was a lake plunge.
So there's this gorgeous lake at the bottom of the mountain. We walked around. This time I was the first in, I could not wait. I was tired, I was sweaty, I was beat down. And boom, that lake was definitely colder than Lake Dillon the day before. It woke me up. It shocked my system in a beautiful way and all the other guys quickly jumped in behind me and it was a really nice way to end the mountain experience.
After that we went, had another great dinner. Chris cooked chicken pad Thai. Again, everyone helped and contributed. And we were so full, metaphorically from the mountain, from the grit, the emotions, everything that it took to do that seven hour journey. And then the food itself. It was a early night, so no fire even needed. We had some nice conversation. And we wound down that night to bring closure to that second day in Leadville.
Next is day four. And this would be, the focus here would be authentic life. So how we could start tracking towards our most authentic life.
We had another beautiful meditation led by Brent. Breath work. An evolution around the ego. And this was really special for me. So the first morning I actually didn't get as powerful of a visual or experience on the ego. And then this morning on day four, it struck me and it really struck me in a way that had meaning. Not just to the present moment and being with these men, but also just where I'm at in my journey right now.
And so I had a really special moment, which I'm still grateful for, for Brent, for helping curate that. You know, honestly, I could be very vulnerable on the show with all of you is that I had a moment where I realized that I've been hiding for a while. And it's now time for me to step into this leadership role of creating and designing and leading experiences. And doing more coaching in the world, supporting people, you know, using all the gifts that are within me to wake up and help other people see what's happening and get support where they need in their lives.
And and this retreat was such a gift for me that I'm so excited to do more of these. And so if that speaks to you, please get in touch because that was a big part of what I realized on this experience with this men. Is that how much I'm ready to do this and it's time.
It's time to stop hiding. It's time to get out there and put this energy into the world and support other people on their journeys.
So we had a beautiful meditation. It was a nice way to end our time at the cabin. We packed up as a crew. So did all the. due diligence of putting things away, getting the cabin in shape, and then we hiked out.
Before we hiked, I actually prompted the guys and encouraged them to hike in silence. So it's really easy to be on these experiences, these retreats, these group events and want to talk. Sometimes we want to talk about general stuff, sometimes we want to get deep in the conversation, you know, and get vulnerable and, you know, go into the heavy stuff.
But I actually suggested that we hike out in silence. This is something I've learned from other people. It's something I've learned from my own experiences that there is a beauty to just navigating nature in silence with yourself. Not only do I think you start to hear your inner voice, your soul start to speak, but you get to hear nature and what it naturally designs.
And um, that was a really nice hour. I think every single guy took me up on the encouragement and hiked down in silence and then we got there, we felt rejuvenated.
And now it was, it was time to head back to Leadville to grab some lunch, grab some pizzas. And I was joking with these guys that it's kind of hard for me to adjust when I've been out in the back country. I've been doing this more and more. Going from that pure nature, animals, you know, the solitude and then coming back to people, there's an adjustment, there's a transition. And so at first I found myself like, Oh, we're at a restaurant, there's all these options and all these, these noises.
But it was really nice to have a good meal with them and to laugh and reminisce on some of the adventures. And we had one last big activity in store and that was rafting. So we would head to do some whitewater rafting out in Buena Vista. We chose a class two and class three rapids. So this is a good, nice, areas of challenge, but also very scenic route on the Arkansas River.
And we split up in two rafts. Nobody fell out this time, even though I always kind of hope that people fall out because it makes it even more exciting. But I think it was a really nice way to be on the river. And experience a little bit of that adventure, a little bit of that higher adrenaline rush .
And again, the surroundings were gorgeous. We had awesome river guides. So that was a nice three hour time together. And after that, there's only one thing left to do. We headed to the Mount Princeton hot springs. We soaked, so we allowed our bodies to rejuvenate for a nice hour in natural hot springs.
Me and some of the other guys actually went in and out of the cold river, which is back to like 40 degree ish , and then jumping back into a hot spring. So this was the nice cold plunge, warm plunge, hot, cold. It was really nice, really great way to, again, wake the system up for our final dinner.
So that is the way that we brought closure to the event. We had a nice dinner at the, the hot springs, so no more work to be done, but just to relax, break bread together. A lot of laughing, a lot of smiling, a lot of remember that. A lot of jokes.
And this is so beautiful just to see the event wind down like that, because there was some intensity to this. There was a lot of emotions, a lot of inner work that took place these last few days. And so to allow guys to kind of just relax and lean back in to just being men, being boys, being, you know, having fun together, it was a great final meal.
And then we head back to one of our cabins and had a nice closing ceremony where everybody got to share something that was on their heart. We wrapped things up. And then the next day everyone headed out back to Denver so that we could catch our flights and wrap up and get back to family and normal life.
So, that was the experience. It was awesome.
I have a few key notes that I just wanted to reiterate. Just some of the takeaways that came from the experience, which I've already mentioned a little bit of.
And the first is, again, that theme of "show yourself." So I think it's incredibly hard for us today as humans to show our true selves. I think if there's anything I want to help people with in the world, that's at the top of the list. Like, how can you find your authentic self, and then how can you show it to the world confidently? With humility, but also with just truth and presence. Like this is such a hard thing for us, myself included.
And I'm finally getting to a place where I'm more comfortable with it to just show up as I am and be that full true self. So that was a big thing that showed up, pun intended, at this event. And it just filtered through the experience from the moment that Paul mentioned to show yourself.
The other thing is learning to be kids again, learning to get back to that wild primal self. Being able to fart and have fun and laugh, being able to explore the woods. Being able to climb a mountain, which is exactly what a curious child would probably do at some point if they were bored in nature and looking for a way to test themselves or just what's up there, right?
There's this curious, wondrous thoughts. So getting back to that wild primal self is definitely something that showed up here and it was beautiful.
Um, being with our ego. So Brent was again masterful in helping us do this through meditation. I also think that as men in the world, especially Front Row Dads, you know, we have a relationship with the ego. And some of us are learning to be with that ego. Not telling it to go away, not telling it to always be quiet or getting upset or angry with it, but but rather to be with it and learn from it and also have a relationship with it.
So this kind of goes into the world of testing both are masculine and feminine energy and the different sides. And the ego generally plays a role in that masculine side. And so it's really cool to see a lot of these powerful men come together and talk about that relationship and be with it in a way where we could just know that there's a deeper wisdom and a deeper understanding and what the ego wants and has in store for us. So that was really cool.
Testing our comfort zone. So this came all through the event, from cold plunges to climbing the mountain to being off grid. You know, there was just a theme of this event. It was awesome to see these men test their comfort zones. My comfort zone was tested. It's something I look to do in my life. And I just continue to grow as a result.
You know, one of the quotes that I planted is this simple quote, "A comfort zone is a beautiful place, but nothing ever grows there." Now, I don't believe that that's an absolute quote. I think that we can still experience growth in our comfort zone, but I do believe that we experience exponential growth when we get out of our comfort zone.
And so... so that quote was a nice reminder just to kind of test us and challenge us to say, Hey, let's get out of that comfort zone. Let's, let's learn. Let's, let's grow a little bit more.
The last thing I'll say was the power of being witnessed. So this is essentially what I believe is the magic, the sweet sauce in group events.
You know, we can have our own extraordinary experiences alone. And there's a time and a place for that. But then um, group events have had a special place in my life for the last five, six years, retreats in particular. And retreats are special because it's an intention to fall back, to go somewhere, to get out of normal life so that you can come back better. So you can come back different. So you can come back a little bit more wise with that internal wisdom of who you are.
And so I've continued to notice that when we're in these group experiences like retreats, and when people show up and open up and allow vulnerability to arise. That is the magic. That's when we feel witnessed. That's when we can step in and also be vulnerable.
So that was very present at this experience. It also lends to the last point I'll make that this was a group of Front Row Dads. So I was privileged to be able to do this through Front Row Dads. The Front Row Dad team, including Jon, supported this from the start. They loved the idea. And having that support, having that trust, made it so easy to just design this experience, lead it with Chris, and be with these men who essentially co-created a magical event.
Front Row Dads are men who are willing to open up, who are willing to be vulnerable, who are willing to test themselves. Willing to ask the deeper questions and essentially hold space.
This, to me, is some of the hardest work in the world. So, I give props to these men.
I'll end with something that I shared on social media when I got back from the retreat because I think this is a great way to just summarize what was co created?
So, ten men showed up to Colorado with an intention to retreat from normal life.
They came here for themselves, their families, and their brothers. Nature showed them new stillness, awareness, and wisdom. They tested their comfort zone, pushed their physical limits, opened their hearts, and expanded their spiritual range. This is the essence of Front Row Dads. This is why we step up, show up, and speak up.
This is powerful men's work that's changing the world.
I'm honored and grateful to have shared this experience with these solid men.
Chris Emick, Brent Perkins, Paul McIntosh, Joe Mancini, Matthew Woodward, Dumasani Thompson, Matthew Ticknor, Christian Nyland, and Phillip Calderon.
Props for every single one of them for showing up. They co created the magic that is Front Row Dads.
And that's a wrap. I hope you enjoyed this. Again, I'm charged. I'm going to be doing more of these retreats, not just exclusively with Front Row Dads, but through SPACE. So if this speaks to you, I want to hear from you. There will definitely be another mountain style retreat coming soon, and I hope you enjoyed this.
Until the next time.
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About this Podcast
Ali is a father, husband, coach and serial entrepreneur with a deep drive to create. He started this podcast to amplify his curiosity and awareness around the human pursuit of transformation.
This content is intended to ignite our natural curiosity and inspire us to realize new levels of personal transformation.